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| Is this "seachange" a good thing? |
| Why yes, yes it is. |
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23% |
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| Nay! A thousand times, NAY! |
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| Who cares? I have enough games already to last me till I DIE. |
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23% |
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| Fish heads, fish heads, rolly polly fish heads. |
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30% |
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| WTF is a pet rock!? |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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DankPanties
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: State of the Industry II: New York Times Edition |
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This very recent article by the New York Times is actually a well written piece. It certainly encapsulates the evolution that console gaming seems to be taking now. Numbers, that is sales, just don't lie.
I'm not exactly a big fan of online multiplayer. Not that I won't be playing Brawl online, but that's highly non-personal. I just don't feel the need or desire to create an avatar and run amongst thousands of other avatars in any MMORPG I've seen yet. Perhaps because there's not a MMORPG franchise I've seen that appeals to me yet, but probably 'cause I'm a sociopathic hardcore old bastard of a gamer. Who's very solitary in the real life, let alone a virtual one. A gamer who wants a solid story with an actual ending and credits to look forward to.
Neither am I inclined towards a collection of mini-games to waggle a motion sensitive stick at surrounded by other waggling friends in a living room. If I was gonna do that often, I'd seriously rather go bowling or play pool in I don't know, real life, or something.
However it's obvious I fall into the minority of sales figures. I represent a demographic that is rapidly deteriorating. And possibly won't be seriously catered to for much longer. Unless of course, this softcore market's bubble bursts.
So that's the question... is this new "seachange" a permanent thing? Or will this era of Guitar Hero, Wii-Play, and World of Warcraft eventually fade into a footnote of gaming's history? Is this a fad, or a trend? And how do you feel about it either way?
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Gironika
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Counter-current space
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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url asks for a login ... bummer.
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DankPanties
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gironika wrote: |
| url asks for a login ... bummer. |
Here is the article:
| New York Times wrote: |
Video Games
In the List of Top-Selling Games, Clear Evidence of a Sea Change
By SETH SCHIESEL
Published: February 1, 2008
Ever since video games decamped from arcades and set up shop in the nation’s living rooms in the 1980s, they have been thought of as a pastime enjoyed mostly alone. The image of the antisocial, sunlight-deprived game geek is enshrined in the popular consciousness as deeply as any stereotype of recent decades.
Skip to next paragraph
Enlarge This Image
Saul Loeb/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
Jeanne Gildea, right, 81, at a retirement community in Silver Spring, Md., enjoying Wii, which has expanded gaming’s reach.
Enlarge This Image
Rahav Segev for The New York Times
Blake Coleman and Shandi Sullivan during a Guitar Hero Night last summer at Pianos, the Lower East Side club.
That’s changing. Online PC games in which thousands of players gab and explore together are attracting tens of millions of subscribers. Back in the living room, Nintendo’s revolutionary Wii system has helped forge a new audience for gaming among families, women and older people, who had been turned off by the complex, violent and solitary adventures that once dominated the market. Paradoxically, at a moment when technology allows designers to create ever more complex and realistic single-player fantasies, the growth in the now $18 billion gaming market is in simple, user-friendly experiences that families and friends can enjoy together.
Those are the lessons that emerge from the list of the 10 top-selling console games of 2007. The list, released recently by the market research company NPD Group, highlights the soaring popularity of mass-market franchises like Guitar Hero and the Wii at the expense of critically acclaimed projects aimed at the same young-male audience the industry has relied on for years. (As recently as 2006, sales charts were covered with single-player diversions and sports games.)
Put another way, it may be a sign of the industry’s nascent maturity that as video games become more popular than ever, hard-core gamers and the old-school critics who represent them are becoming an ever smaller part of the audience.
That is not so unusual in other media. In most forms of entertainment there is a divide between what is popular with the masses and what is popular with the critics. Plenty of films get rave reviews but never make it past the art houses. Plenty of blockbusters are panned.
The reasons for that seem fairly clear. Film, books and music (and food, for that matter) have been around long enough to have developed highly sophisticated cognoscenti whose tastes have little to do with the mass audiences that still drive those markets. Food critics have as much sway over Red Lobster as book critics do over Danielle Steel.
That has not been the case with video games. Game critics and players have been closely aligned in their tastes, perhaps because the writers and buyers came from more or less the same pool of tech-savvy young men.
But judging from the Top 10 list, that paradigm may be breaking down. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing for either the financial or the creative health of video games. The importance of the mass audience in gaming’s spectacular growth is seen most clearly in the success of Nintendo’s Wii, which is far outselling its more technically advanced hardware competitors, the Xbox 360 from Microsoft and PlayStation 3 from Sony. The Wii is easy to use, while the 360 and PS3 are aimed at veteran players. Critics and game developers have been known to gripe about the Wii’s selling so well even though there aren’t many “great” games for that system.
The consumer doesn’t care. Wii Play was the No. 2-selling game of last year even though it received an abysmal score of 58 out of 100 at Metacritic.com, which aggregates reviews. Mario Party 8 for the Wii made the list at No. 10 with a similarly bad Metacritic rating of 62. Both Wii Play and Mario Party 8 are basically collections of mini-games, like table tennis, portrayed through simple graphics. To someone steeped in game lore, that’s pretty lame. To someone who just bought a Wii for the family, that’s pretty cool.
Of course, if such games are making the Top 10, that means that some games adored by the gaming experts are now falling short of the best-seller list.
The showcase example is BioShock, the noir thriller set beneath the Atlantic Ocean. BioShock has already become one of the most acclaimed games of all time (Metacritic score of 96) and has taken most of the 2007 game-of-the-year laurels from various groups and publications (including the Game Critics Awards announced on Thursday). Yet it failed to crack the Top 10 in sales, perhaps because the very qualities that made it such a critical darling — a complex story underpinned by a sophisticated interpretation of Ayn Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism — made it less accessible to a mass audience than the running and gunning of Halo 3 or Call of Duty 4, which both made the top-sales list.
Similarly, the role-playing masterpiece Mass Effect, the fabulous mythology vehicle God of War II and Valve’s excellent compilation the Orange Box all failed to crack the Top 10. There is hardly a question that two years ago all of those games would have made the list. Now they have simply been crowded out of the top echelon by less intimidating fare like Guitar Hero.
And perhaps it is not a coincidence that BioShock, Mass Effect and God of War II are all purely single-player games. You can’t play any of them with friends, either over the Internet or on the couch. Nine of the 10 top-selling games of 2007 include a significant multiplayer component. The only exclusively single-player game that made the list was Assassin’s Creed, an adventure set in the Crusades.
If new acceptance by the masses is one pillar of gaming’s future, gaming’s emergence as a social phenomenon is the other. Hard-core gamers are still willing to spend 30 hours playing alone through a single-player story line, but most people want more human contact in their entertainment.
That is why World of Warcraft, the king of online games, now has more than 10 million users. That is why Guitar Hero is now a fixture on campus. That is why Nintendo has become the dominant mass-market game company.
And even a gamer can admit that there’s nothing wrong with a little human contact once in a while. |
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layazero
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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didn't wii play come with an ultra hard to find extra wiimote? metascore isn't exactly scientific, either.
what exactly was the top ten anyway?
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Lurky
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Szcz
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Walvis Bay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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That is one of the most depressing articles I have read in a long time.
But, and I hate (love) to say this, but: I TOLD YOU SO!
About 5 years back I was ranting on a lot of forums about casual gaming would kill the medium (mostly on NTSC-uk's forum), and how we were all doomed, and everyone thought I was nuts.
Well, let's face it. Gaming is going down the shitter because of all this mass-produced, casual-friendly crap. A few gems like No More Heroes are not going to change things.
Japan is disintegrating due to poor sales and a sick, desperate attempt to suck off the Western gaming market, instead of focusing on itself, Japan. All around me I see an abandonment of what I enjoy in gaming.
This is why I've mostly given up on games and have sold off my whole collection.
It is just not the same anymore. The golden era has passed, and despite a few decent titles these days, it's all going to hell.
Which was inevitable really. A small cottage industry, which seemed to regulate and govern itself at one point, attracted the interest of bigger corporations and now the whole way the industry works has changed.
_________________
I genuinely think the first two CDi Zelda games are good, and they have Metroidvania designs
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NFG
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane.au
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Well, let's face it. Gaming is going down the shitter because of all this mass-produced, casual-friendly crap. A few gems like No More Heroes are not going to change things.
[...]
This is why I've mostly given up on games and have sold off my whole collection. |
May I paraphrase?
"AUGH people don't value the same things I do! Gnash gnash fuckit I'm selling off all things precious to me! That'll show 'em!"
Do the opinions of strangers really matter so much to you that without their validation you'll make yourself suffer? I think more likely you sold it because you weren't interested in it like you used to be. At least, I hope that's the case.
As far as I'm concerned gaming peaked with Robotron. Everything else has been lesser, but so what? No one cares. We're the old men ranting and raving about how movies all started to suck when they went colour <spit> and all these johnny-come-latelies filling the theatres and paying for this modern shit are ruining it for everyone!
Enjoy the games you've already got and let the kids have their play. Otherwise it's true, and I'm sorry, but we will be those old men.
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Szcz
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Walvis Bay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| NFG wrote: |
Do the opinions of strangers really matter so much to you that without their validation you'll make yourself suffer? I think more likely you sold it because you weren't interested in it like you used to be. At least, I hope that's the case. |
The current trend of developers is why I feel so disenchanted with the way of things - my collection selling was a bit more complex, though tied in with it. It doesn't seem to interest me so much anymore, and most of this stuff clogs up shelf space, like my Miyamoto-signed copies of Zelda. Selling it freed me from having to look after it and keep it pristine, gave me some extra cash, and freed up some shelf space. Besides, I have no intention of playing Zelda 3 again. So, off it all went.
In fact, I seem to have little interest in any of it anymore, and as far as physical property goes, it just weighs me down.
The only thing I've kept is my PS2 (to play a few hardcore games like Odin Sphere to completion), and my Dreamcast, to emulate NES games, which although many aren't particularly good, remind me of my childhod.
(freakishly, the Wii seems the most appealing to me, since Vanilla 5 and Suda 51 develop for it, plus I'll have those old games for nostalgia - which, in a sense, kind of contradicts everything...)
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I genuinely think the first two CDi Zelda games are good, and they have Metroidvania designs
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DankPanties
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I will admit thanks to the joys of emulation, I sold off all my 8 and 16 bit games. Let the hardcore have them in exchange for some $$$ to buy 32 bit stuff, ya know?
I'm not quite ready to say the entire ship is sinking and it's time to jump off thanks to this "seachange".
I am hoping that there will always be about five or six triple AAA hardcore single player titles a year that will appease pissy old bastards like me. That's really all I have time for now anyways when I factor in all the old assed games I still want to finish plus the dreaded real life. The elderly and trendy women can have all the cream puff rhythm'n'mini games after that.
Sad thing is though, those hardcore single player games will probably mostly come out exclusive to PC. Which is an expensive platform to keep up with admittedly. But if that's the only way I'm gonna get to play Fallout 3, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky, and Far Cry 2... well guess I'm gonna have to bleed out the ol' wallet a bit.
I find myself being hypocritical a bit though. I have to admit I really love my DS and a lot of the silly assed games it has. Not only that, but I bought my daughter one. Out of all the games I've let her play, she loves stuff like Electroplankton, My Sims, and Tamagotchi Corner Shop the most. While those games fall into the "seachange" category, I can't pretend I'm not glad they don't exist, for my daughter's sake.
So I guess I'm saying I don't mind the market diversifying to appease various demographics. As long as my own demographic, guys around 25-35 aren't left out in the cold. Bring on Hitman 5, Postal 3, and RapeLay VR Edition, and you won't see me bitching. ;p
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Lurky
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Gironika
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Counter-current space
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Are sales for different systems added up, like the BioShock-sales for the PC and the 360? If not, then it should be even harder to get a Top10-spot if games are spread across several systems whereas Wii Sports will get a higher ratio just because you can only buy it for the Wii, will it?
The thing is, as soon as the "new" gaming generation moves on to do something different, what'll be left? A pile of mini-games nobody wants anymore? Atari all over again?
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Incredulous
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: State of the Industry II: New York Times Edition |
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"fabulous mythology vehicle"?
| DankPanties wrote: |
| Neither am I inclined towards a collection of mini-games to waggle a motion sensitive stick at surrounded by other waggling friends in a living room. If I was gonna do that often, I'd seriously rather go bowling or play pool in I don't know, real life, or something. |
I'm not up to date on quantum physics - do living rooms count as nexuses of unreality? Do activities conducted in them "not count"?
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Lurky
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think the ps2/xbox generation of gaming was lackluster and it's death, or in this case fading away in the face of minigames, is not a bad thing.
For those who do enjoy it though, these types of games will continue for quite some time, even if they do eventually become niche, like 2d shooters before them.
Change is part of the industry.
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DankPanties
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: State of the Industry II: New York Times Edition |
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| Incredulous wrote: |
| "I'm not up to date on quantum physics - do living rooms count as nexuses of unreality? Do activities conducted in them "not count"? |
The activities conducted in my living room are certainly indicative of non-reality. Or moreover, a denial of reality. But that's just me.
Point I was making is that I don't want a game about bowling because I can bowl in real life with friends at an actual bowling lane. Now, flying spaceships with dragon wings around while shooting tentacle potatoes at mutant ninjas with friends, now that's a living room only thing. I'd like a multi-player game about that, see.
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layazero
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: |
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i think most of you are looking back with (very) rose colored glasses...
Stale sports games, MMOs (as long as they have been around), pokemon and crappy movie adaptations have always littered the top sales ranks.
The ratio to great games to crap has always been in favor of the crap and I don't think it's any different today. For every Katamari Damacy, there's 5 "Harry Potter Quiddich 2004." Junk like the latter tends to sell more, but it doesn't mean developers aren't making great games.
And quite frankly, casual games aren't bad per se. If you don't believe me, just check out ABA Games
Dive is also a fun little game.
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Chris B
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| article wrote: |
| Nintendo’s revolutionary Wii system has helped forge a new audience for gaming among families, women and older people, who had been turned off by the complex, violent and solitary adventures that once dominated the market. |
I think that's the best thing that happened to the industry since PONG, and there'll still be hardcore titles as long as there'll be hardcore gamers to play them, so everyone wins.
I couldn't care less about the last console generation (PS2, Cube, XBox), which was a good example of stagnation.
The industry isn't going down the shitter, quite the contrary actually.
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dmauro
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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eat them up, yum.
Right now all the talk is about how the indie video game scene is thriving. We still have Cave pumping out awesome shmups. I won't at all be surprised if Bionic Commando Rearmed blows the original away. The recently released SSB Brawl manages to combine mass market appeal and niche fighting appeal in one amazing game. There just isn't a lack of hardcore/niche games yet. Smaller developers (and one man teams) are going to fill any void left after our new Guitar Hero overlords completely take over anyways. I mean, you can start making Che Guevara posters with Cactus on them if you'd like, but it probably won't even be necessary.
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work3
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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casual gaming isnt fucking killing ANYTHING - just because your favourite genre isnt top of the charts right now doesn't mean that theyre gonna stop making them.
you think the guys that made <insert> will be happy working on some casual game? aint gonna happen - there's always nerds obsessed with the next big tech, and big guns, and space marines, and what they imagine half naked women might look like....
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www.work3.com
www.ookibloks.com
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NFG
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane.au
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to drag up this old topic. While surfing metanet's site (looking for the reviews of XBLA games that they deleted ... anyone got a cached version?) I found a post on this topic that seemed very relevent. It's pasted from one of my sekrit forums!
----
There is a very interesting post over on Metanet (home of the hastily deleted 100-XBoxLiveArcade-reviews post, seen on insertcredit.com). A few choice quotes about casual gamers:
| Quote: |
| In other media, “casual” products are more commonly referred to as “trash” — you have your trashy romance novels, your lip-synching boy bands, your cheesy reality tv and your god-awful Uwe Boll flicks. In other words, material that’s been cynically engineered with no goal beyond appealing to the lowest common denominator: people who aren’t literate in or knowledgeable about the medium enough to know better, and/or people who have terrible, terrible, appallingly terrible taste. |
| Quote: |
| Then there’s the other half of the story: as developers, do you really want an audience so oblivious that they eagerly consume blatant clones of existing games? An audience so devoid of interest in game aesthetics that one of their most desired features is (apparently) jungle/Egyptian/Aztec-themed 3D backgrounds? An audience so lazy that almost any action or decision on the part of the player must result in success, coupled with ridiculous amounts of positive audio/visual feedback, lest the player become frustrated by the fact that they may have to learn or think in order to succeed. |
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| Just because there’s money in it doesn’t mean that it’s morally or ethically right. If we continue to pander to the barely-game-literate, how will they ever become more literate? Learning isn’t always easy; sometimes it can be quite challenging. But isn’t the challenge what makes it so exhilarating? |
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luvcraft
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| NFG wrote: |
| Sorry to drag up this old topic. While surfing metanet's site (looking for the reviews of XBLA games that they deleted ... anyone got a cached version?) |
I have a cached version in my brain. Unfortunately, due to my brain's lossy compression scheme, all I can extract from it is: "wow, these guys love games I hate, and hate games I love. I guess this is to be expected though, since I don't like N. ...puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."
I think that last part might've been left over from whatever was in that area of my memory before and didn't get overwritten correctly.
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layazero
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how casual games can be equated to boy bands, etc.
Yes, there are a lot of bad casual games out there catered to the lowest common denominator, but there are a lot of good casual games out there, too.
Just like "proper games."
Kenta Cho and Ferry Halim make casual games that I'd rather play than say, Halo 3 or Assassin's Creed.
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NFG
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane.au
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Your exceptions do not disprove the general truth of the issue: 'casual' games cater to the lowest common denominator, and generally fail to really raise the bar in any way. At best they could be said to do little more than further cross-platform standards as they try to make one game run everywhere.
The core of the argument, for me, is this:
| metanet wrote: |
| do you really want an audience so oblivious that they eagerly consume blatant clones of existing games? |
That some 'casual' games don't apply doesn't make it any less valid.
Yes, there are exceptions. Everyone knows this. You could probably find a pop star somewhere that actually makes good music too, but you get no points for it.
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Haze
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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so if the companies that are only interested in getting the most sales on the widest market start making more Wii bowling party games, the hardcore will be forced to buy actually good games? yay! no I'm only half-serious.
maybe gaming really is going into a 90s pop music phase, who knows. is it elitist of me to say that I don't care very much about what's popular? I dislike it, but I don't really mind what the casual market does. (except for World of Warcraft, I hate that crap and hope everyone gets tired of MMOs)
every single field of entertainment these days seems to brag about higher and higher sales, breaking new records, as if that means anything about quality. I'm tired of it all becoming so homogenous.
I'll root for indie and homebrew games, though.
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DankPanties
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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layazero
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| NFG wrote: |
Your exceptions do not disprove the general truth of the issue: 'casual' games cater to the lowest common denominator, and generally fail to really raise the bar in any way. At best they could be said to do little more than further cross-platform standards as they try to make one game run everywhere.
The core of the argument, for me, is this:
| metanet wrote: |
| do you really want an audience so oblivious that they eagerly consume blatant clones of existing games? |
That some 'casual' games don't apply doesn't make it any less valid.
Yes, there are exceptions. Everyone knows this. You could probably find a pop star somewhere that actually makes good music too, but you get no points for it. |
I understand that, but I'm trying to say that this isn't different from the m.o. of "proper games," as metanet calls them.
Was it 2006 or 2007 where out of all of EA's dozen or so games, only 1 wasn't a sequel and that game was titled The Godfather? The New York Times article talks about Halo 3, Guitar Hero, Call of Duty 4 and Mario Party 8 as top sellers. Who's raising the bar there? And this doesn't necessarily mean these are bad games...
This is a problem, but it isn't exclusive to or inherent in casual games. Don't you think you could say: 'most' games cater to the lowest common denominator, and generally fail to really raise the bar in any way?
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paintbucket
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: |
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If you're interested enough in a medium to consider yourself an aficionado or connoisseur, you will never be able to stomach the mainstream. Run away; run away and take refuge in the sidelines and let the monkeys fight their monkey wars and stay happy in personal fulfillment.
The good stuff, that is, the stuff that transcends fads and 'seachange' and such, will always be around, creeping and crawling into from the underground and left-field.
_________________
cult of the kino-eye
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NFG
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane.au
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I understand that, but I'm trying to say that this isn't different from the m.o. of "proper games," as metanet calls them. |
You're absolutely right, and this is a very good point. I totally didn't get that from your last post, but yeah, good call.
I think perhaps 'casual' games could best be described as 'anything your mom enjoys'. Softcore bitch that she is. ;)
| Quote: |
| take refuge in the sidelines and let the monkeys fight their monkey wars and stay happy in personal fulfillment. |
This is also true. It is a hard line to walk, however: Should a man collapse upon himself, withdrawing from society to pursue only personal gratification? Or should he rise, take arms against a sea of ignorance and apathy, and strive to change the world?
Neither one is likely to end in significant success, and both with ultimately result in death. =)
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mrnutz
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| paintbucket wrote: |
| If you're interested enough in a medium to consider yourself an aficionado or connoisseur, you will never be able to stomach the mainstream. |
This sounds like troll bait but I'll take it anyway. I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I get the gist.
I'll go out on a limb and call this 'narrow minded'. To unilaterally reject the mainstream is not being a connoisseur, it's being a snob.
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SuperWes
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| paintbucket wrote: |
| The good stuff, that is, the stuff that transcends fads and 'seachange' and such, will always be around, creeping and crawling into from the underground and left-field. |
Uhh, does this guy realize that almost all of the games that are referred to as "classic" were mainstream at the time?
-Wes
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