let's discuss CRT TV ownership

DaveedNoo

I used to watch a lot more stuff than I do now. I don’t think its CRT related but I do think its lack of physical media related. I turn on netflix, see 4000 things and just turn it off. Could just be I’m busy with other stuff though.

I do think these tech discussions are super interesting. The CRT thing reminds me of polaroid thinking film is dead and discontinuing instant film even though it was a magical product that everyone still wants. Not exactly the same but there’s certainly some things lost in the digital view.

connrrr

I half-seriously asked on one of the retro subreddits if there was a solution for outputting a MiSTer to RF. I feel like I can mention this here and not get scoffed at, but the unimaginative incels there told me almost unanimously to just go RGB. We’re all experimenting with dead tech and these people still think of image quality as linear, not a jumble of interchangeable compromises to be tailored to personal taste (the correct opinion).

I have a 20″ mid-2000s Toshiba (20AF44) to which is connected my Saturn, N64, DC and PS2. The DE10-Nano will be too once I have the money to turn it into a MiSTer. I used to own a 26″ widescreen Toshiba from the same period but gave it to the brother I don’t get along with when I got my Samsung HDTV—escuse me, “sMaRtTv”—nine years ago, so it’s probably long gone. For me, this is fine, but when I think back to how I used to work at a computer store in 2011-13, that hosted an ewaste recycling depot that was collecting multiple CRTs per day and it didn’t once occur to me to pick it over for something nice, I’m tempted to regret.

Never regret. Enjoy what you have, because unless you grew up rich then it’s only period-appropriate to do so.

DaveedNoo Polaroid brought back the One Step line and started selling film again after The Impossible Project was, I guess, a success. I keep meaning to pick one up.

whatsarobot

antillese Lots of good insight here, and I learned a lot from your post. Thank you.

Re: the “whine” coming from CRTs - that is an experience I have lived as well. But when I was a kid, the CRT being on always felt to me like more of a bodily sensation than a sound. Weird.

antillese

Syzygy CRTs, they’re electronic but have this analogue-like physicality

Well, it’s not analogue-like for many of the CRTs being discussed in this thread. They are literally analog in their operation.

whatsarobot Lots of good insight here, and I learned a lot from your post. Thank you.

Thanks so much! I’m really glad it resonated with you!

Much of my thinking on this is due to my career and background. I’ve been in the high-tech industry my whole career and have an engineering education. I’ve spent most of my time as a systems engineer and now I’m in a technical product marketing role so understanding end-user “use cases” and what is “good enough” is critical to your ability to make product tradeoffs.

If you’re in that field you have a very low-tolerance for pseudo-tech snake oil. I see some of the CRT discussion becoming fetishized. It’s like how a few of the other folks have mentioned in the audio hobby: “You’re not really listening to the Beatles unless you’ve got some scratchy LP and a $2500 tube amp” and “you’re not really playing the Sega Master System unless is on a broadcast monitor which was unobtainable for most users in its time”.

I seriously doubt that beyond a very small group of subject matter experts, people in a double-blind study would be able to definitively tell you this is on original hardware, vs. this is in an emulation environment. It would be a very very hard study to control for, and yes, there are lots of our Insert Credit friends that can suss out the small details, but I also argue that it’s unlikely to make a real difference. Just like how I can tell if I’m watching the 35-year-old movie Aliens on BluRay, or Aliens on VHS, or Aliens on film, ultimately some of it comes down to convenience and how it is presented.

I don’t want people to read my posts and feel like I’m shaming them for their choices in how they enjoy their hobby either. I want people to read my posts and feel empowered to enjoy their hobby in the way that best works for them and not feel like they don’t have any right to enjoy older games presented in modern ways.

Syzygy

I mean, there is a bodily sensation also. You can put it on and move your arm in front of the glass and feel your hairs stand on end, that’s your body’s magnetic field moving through the tube’s. This is something I enjoy about CRTs, they’re electronic but have this analogue-like physicality: it’s good practice when rotating a CRT into tate position, to leave it powered off for a couple hours in the new orientation— so its magnetic field can align with the Earth’s.

whatsarobot

Syzygy Thanks to this post, I feel I have begun to understand the appeal of steampunk fiction.

whatsarobot

antillese I agree that there should be no gatekeeping involved with how people want to (or are able to) experience their visual entertainment, and like you, have never bought into (lol) the idea that there is a definitive “best” way to experience any given game or film. Especially when the “best” way involves spending the most money.

I also think you’ve added a fair bit of nuance to the conversation, as it’s never really as simple as CRT vs non-CRT. There is so much variation on either side of that divide.

If I’m being honest, I find the wealth of options available a bit frustrating, because when something about my viewing or playing experience seems unsatisfying, and I know it’s not down to the mechanics, I find myself wondering, “Would this have been more enjoyable with different hardware?” Likely, the answer in most cases would be “No,” but the question still presents itself.

This is in fact one reason why I prefer handheld consoles. Generally speaking, the intended experience is the one you’re guaranteed to have, outside of hacking, homebrew and various sizes of DS/3DS.

Syzygy

I figured someone would say that, but I’m knowingly bending words to gesture at a sentiment about

the appeal of ~~steampunk~~ dieselpunk fiction

milo

whatsarobot

the intended experience

This is it right here, for me. Why I choose to play old games on a CRT. I’m certainly no snob but when I play games I want to experience it the way the developer designed it to be experienced and since HD flat-screen TVs weren’t around for the SEGA Genesis to be played on, I want to play it on a CRT. It’s also why I prefer not to fuss around with emulators or emulated hardware and try to only play games on legit released hardware. I don’t care how everyone else plays their games, that’s just how I prefer.

I did used to think the whole PVM scene was all hype… Until I saw one in person at a gaming show. The image was so crisp and was damn near jumping out of the screen. I bought 2 last year from Craigslist, a 12″ Trinitron which is my main retro gaming setup (with my Genesis/SCD hooked up through SCART to RGB and stereo speakers) and an 8″ which lives on my test bench in the workshop.

Other than that, I’ve got a 19″ magnavox CRT that my friend was gonna take to the dump a few years ago. He was just as confused as I was excited to take it from him. That ones also in the workshop hooked up to my VHS player. I also have a 32″ CRT that’s in the family game room in the main house that gets used for parties and stuff.

穴

whatsarobot I find myself wondering, “Would this have been more enjoyable with different hardware?” Likely, the answer in most cases would be “No,” but the question still presents itself.

I play on emulators on my PC quite often because I play a lot of stuff that I don’t have access to and that question haunts me everytime, also if the emulator has a lot of settings I get the same stupid thing where the question: “will I have a better experience if I turn on this specific setting?” is always in the back of my mind.

That being said I do prefer to play on crt’s because I don’t have any fancy scaler and I’m an input lag baby and even one frame of lag is enough for me to notice the game feeling slower. It is extremely playable but it’s also noticable for me since I sometimes enjoy attempts at speedrunning. (I know i’m getting kind of in the audiophile level with this)

I explained the story of how I managed to aquire (steal) a pvm from my highschool on the hardware show off thread a couple of months ago. So I figure if I already have a super fancy crt I might as well buy a couple of fancy rgb cables for it and use it.

I’m buying a MiSter soon to have an end-all solution to play most stuff that I want to play, and I’m curious to see where I will be playing most stuff when I get the MiSter with the dual video output. My guess is that I will still preffer to play on my PVM, but who knows. maybe the convenience of my hdtv will win.

Kimimi

My feelings on CRTs have shifted over time: Back when they were just TVs I was very vocal about RGB SCART (or S-video, as appropriate) because the best quality experience was for most people and most consoles an inexpensive length of cable away. Now CRTs are heavy, bulky, and expensive… play what you want on whatever you’ve got. CRTs really are wonderful things: They give images a sort of glow that no filter can match and I’m not playing Vampire Night/Virtua Cop/Time Crisis/Gun Survivor on any other type of display in the near future but I’d rather have people playing games and enjoying them than being “authentic” or whatever. TV tech talk loses me the instant it goes any deeper than “Does it work?” and “Are you having fun?”

(I wrote an article about all this too)

robinhoodie

I got lucky and got 4 good Component ready 19 inch CRTs in the last 5 years. And they’re a great way to play classic games especially as compared to through Composite. BUT that said. I can feel them dying. So I have made the decision that I will just use them as much as possible. And give them a proper send off. Once they die I will maybe be in a place in life where I can have a huge flat screen taking up a wall in my apartment and then that will be the way I play. Until then CRT glow in a basement studio.

TheFragranceOfDarkCoffee

I will say that the more recent your retro console the smaller the returns on a CRT tend to be for me. Playing a Genesis on a CRT really invokes something fun. Playing a Gamecube on a CRT is fine, but not fundamentally that different from playing it on a newer screen. (Unless I guess you’re a hardcore Melee head, but if so then you don’t need to be sold on CRTs at this point).

The N64 just barely edges over the “nicer on CRT” line for me. Anything after that and the difference is largely not worth the hassle.

tapevulture

TheFragranceOfDarkCoffee hmmm…i gave wind waker a shot on a 4K screen last year, just connecting GC directly via composite, and was amazed at how blurry it looked. maybe 4K is just too far of a gap? would my old 720P TV make a big difference?

fugazi57

Friend of mine gave me a nice 29′ Samsung. I had to carry it down 5 flights of stairs. When I got to my car I realized my arms simply didn’t work anymore so I had to wave to a motorcycle rider dude passing by so he stopped and helped me. Very nice guy. Sometimes when i carry heavy things the pain in my back I felt that day comes back but it was worth it lol I love my baby.

The last great experience I had with it (like last week) was when I first tried watching old anime in it. Gainax’s Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi is only available in 480p and looked terrible on my 4k tv. I was able to play it on my crt via a modded ps3 and it looked SO GREAT AND SHARP. There’s something about the contrast in CRTs. I think we were already getting “true blacks” back then but we just weren’t able to appreciate it enough.

KennyL

tapevulture Flatpanels are just not good at scaling low rez analogue stuff. External scalers like Retrotinks do bang up jobs but kind of pricy even for cheapest one. If you wanna go nuts, $300 Retrotinks 5x pro also has pretty nice looking CRT filters. Pair that with $1500 LG OLED TV with black frame insertion on and you’ll get something pretty close to CRT lol.

treefroggy

I disagree with the audiophile comparison. Audiophiles exist mainly because along the line somewhere, audio companies decided they can make more money by selling cheap flimsy plastic crap, so they stopped advertising things like frequency range. Nowadays you still see tv monitors marketed with the exact specs front and center— resolution, refresh rate, etc.

I think that’s all I have to add for now. I’m a self proclaimed CRT expert, and I’ve gone from hating RGB-heads, to figuring out how to do things cheap and effectively, to now coming back around to composite blending superiority again.

Eventually none of this will matter once we get the perfect universal CRT filter.

robinhoodie

I will say we had the Laser Bear CRT made with an Ipad screen (not my photo below, but gives you an idea) in at Video Game New York today and it really impressed me in terms of having the look of a real CRT in terms of color and vibrancy. So maybe we’re not that far off.

whatsarobot

robinhoodie that does look nice!

antillese

robinhoodie
I like your choice of demo games for a CRT. 👍👍

golok

robinhoodie
hey i’ve got this same exact screen & case from laserbear, it’s really cool but every power supply i’ve tried (which is only like, three to be fair) is really finicky and it takes me several minutes of adjusting it to even get it to power on. once it’s on it’s real great. MiSTer actually has video modes for this specific resolution, it rocks. https://www.retrorgb.com/mister-1536p-support-added-3k-video-mode-recipe.html
here are some pictures i took of mine right after putting it together.

i honestly like looking at this thing more than the 14″ BVM that’s been gathering dust in my garage for a couple years now, much easier to toss on my desk & put away when it’s not in use and it looks fantastic, maybe i’d use the BVM more if i had a better place to set it up permanently but for now this thing is cool and fulfills the same brain-desire.

robinhoodie

antillese Shoot. Not my photo. One I snatched from Twitter. But the game we were testing in the lab was Mario 64. On the giant flat screen through the Tink 5x with scan lines it looked okay, but on the little screen at the same time. A world of difference.

KennyL

antillese I don’t know man, sorry if I’m reading it wrong, you seems be annoyed by loud kids chasing accuracy but we all have our own whales to chase, you know? When you hear people say CRTs are better, please take it as statement of appreciation, not decree. I’m certainly not too high on accuracy but CRTs sure make me feel warm and fuzzy inside and kookoo in the head.

Last year my mom gave me her 32 year old 13 inch composite Sony Trinitron that my dad bought for $100 from a repair shop like 15 years ago. I was shocked at how good it looks running old consoles. I love it! It’s impossible to photograph how good CRTs look.

To my eyes it looks better than my 13 year old $1500 Panasonic plasma tv and my 2 year old $209 27 inch AOC IPS 144hz 1080p gaming monitor running pc emulators/Mister. One of my friends also rediscovered Sony (3 19inch sets inbox from his dad’s coworker) around the same time and was also wowwwwed. It’s a bit of dangerous experience for certain people to see CRTs again in a long long while…..

Sony apparently cheated in loads of color beyond NTSC spec in consumer Trinitrons so it can get super colorful and vibrant. Of course I jack the saturation and brightness way up, total eye candy. Accuracy be damned. I tried to run emulator filters and crank the settings on my plasma and pc monitor but just can’t get there.

Here is comparison I sent over to CRTpixels. It looks blurry because it’s blown up from 13 inch screen but looks clear and even more vibrant in person.

I understand you brought up emulation to comment about people chasing accurate experience but I feel like it’s a bit off topic. CRTs are just monitors so they’re source agnostic on supported connections. Emulators on Wii look amazing on my Sony!! Cleaner than real consoles.

There are “audiophile” level of CRT fandom for sure but the image difference is pretty clear cut to me even on old cheap small consumer CRT with “bad” composite connection. No math, no latency blah blah, no calibration, just purely looking at it with my eye #1 and eye #2. So, am I gatekeeping with my TV that you can still buy for under $200 even on ebay that’s still cheaper than LG gaming monitor?…… YESSSS!!! My 32yo 13in Sony CRT is motherfucking Citizen Kain of TVs and all your TVs/monitors look like poop!!

antillese

KennyL
I feel like you took my post more or less in the spirit that I intended it. You and I are both different people with different perspectives. And we are both assuming good intent with each other so we’re solid. 😎👍

I certainly don’t want to come across as saying that you can’t or shouldn’t enjoy it on whatever hardware you have reasonable access too. I do appreciate them, I just want to make sure people don’t hear it as a “oh, you didn’t actually play Metroid 3 unless you played it over {string.specific.video.setup}”.

Your comments about consumer Trinitrons are dead on. They look amazing because they cranked the gamut and let’s all just admit NTCS color space sucked to begin with.

My comments about emulation were in the context of running on a modern digital monitor and using a filter/shader to simulate a CRT’s image artifacts, not in the context of the source itself. And I love all the posts about how things look on CRTs vs the pixel art. It’s again a great systems engineering example of understanding the use case of your product.

In conclusion, my 41-year-old eyes do not want to play any games on a 13″ monitor because I wouldn’t be able to read anything!

milo

Not to get entirely objective here, but this is a neat discussion with a cool article that touches on how early game devs designed their art for CRT sets that compounds what I posted earlier about the “intended experience”.

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