Ep. 201 - Lovely Ball Kicking, with Kris Graft

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I appreciated hearing Frank‘s thoughts on the WATA/Heritage Auctions video although I also disagree with what he says on a number of points. I think it’s too dismissive to accuse the video of promoting a narrative based on “gamer purity” a la white nationalism and wave away what it says. I‘m open to a world with all kinds of game collectors, but the idea of a website allowing people to buy “shares” of a specific cartridge seems kind of wackadoo.

I think Frank is totally right in his assertion that old games are now collectible antiques and that the era of finding CIB Genesis games for $1-5 is in the past, but I can also easily imagine video game prices going down from their current levels in the future. I also think it does seem extremely fishy to me that some very common games are fetching previously unimaginable prices (ie the $2,000,000 Super Mario Bros).

This might just be "baby’s first exposure to capitalism“ as he says, but I don't want to react by saying ”hey, that‘s capitalism, that’s life, and there‘s no changing it!" - I feel like the world of finance and investments needs to be scrutinized closely. If the people at WATA/Heritage are actually trying to prop up what is essentially a house of cards to lure investors into losing their shirts, that’s pretty lousy behavior. Maybe it isn‘t illegal, but I definitely don’t like it and wouldn‘t be too surprised if some of the things going on are illegal in the same way that insider trading is. Besides, don’t we all want to work towards creating a world where people aren't exploiting each other and conning one another out of piles of money?

Am I too idealistic and naive? Maybe. But the whole graded games explosion still sticks in my craw as being more than just the natural course of the market fueled by the pandemic-related general collecting boom.

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I made a comment on the youtube video but I'll say it here as well

I want a rematch as Plok not only has a great soundtrack by Tim and Geoff Follin but also has a flame thrower, and neither of these were taken into account.

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Wait, I totally missed this part. Karl is alt-right? Fuck.
I never knew that, and now I feel totally gross for recommending his speedrunning videos in the past.

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It’s definitely not the same in terms of the effect on the targeted individuals, but reassessing the video in light of what you’ve just said about Jobst (which I was not aware of) crystallises the icky feeling I had about it. Fascist & white nationalist propaganda typically takes anger that should be directed at capitalism and funnels it into a false narrative about a common racial enemy by focusing on individuals - the problem isn’t class, it’s the Rothschilds, for example. And at this point I think it’s worth pointing out that Jim Halperin is Jewish. Obviously I’m not saying any aspect of someone’s identity ought to shield them from scrutiny, but the laser focus on him as the main culprit in the Jobst video might actually be a deliberate attempt to shape a dangerous narrative.

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@rejj i’m not sure if he ever clearly publicly identified as that, but he was definitely friendly with folks who were very public with being that (i.e. RWhiteGoose). it’s possible he doesn’t any more because it doesn’t come up in his videos now. but yes it’s something to be aware of.

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as someone who has been a target of gamergate scumbags many times before… i just don’t really see it. maybe that’s because i follow the Completely Unnecessary podcast who are definitely not right-wing and have talked about this stuff for years, and are probably what spurred on this video to begin with. i think Karl’s Judge Judy cosplay is stupid but it’s not that unusual for the climate of youtube in general.

Karl is definitely an unreliable narrator but there are plenty of legitimate concerns many people have raised with this group of people before, as others have said above.

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@ellaguro I think you’re right about there not being much similarity to gamergate - the intended audience is similar but the narrative, and the impact on individuals singled out for criticism, is quite different. I’m not attempting at all to defend the practices of Heritage, Wata, or any other players in the games speculation market. What I’m is there are serious issues with Jobst’s narrative and I’m trying to tease those out. As a leftist who has spent a lot of time studying the ideology and tactics of the right, I’m seeing some distinct parallels between his narrative and traditional far-right propaganda about finance and culture. It could be accidental but I am not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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I was debating with myself whether it is worth getting into this argument as I ultimately don’t think the sealed video-game speculator’s market is a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I do take some issue with the framing that Frank used in the episode and that Goonbag is using here. This is with all due respect to both, so please don’t take it the wrong way, but I feel like maybe there is some confirmation bias in play in the way you perceived the video?

I understand that there are a lot of gamers who like to gatekeep and whom, although often angry at aspects of the gaming industry never blames capitalism but rather the “bad” capitalists. However, the impression I got from the video was not really that the thesis being put forward is “Market manipulation and price fixing is a unique terrible thing being done to games and poor gamers”, in fact a big part of the video (whatever you may think about the evidence presented) was comparing it with a similar speculative bubble in the coin collectors market. Yes, the video didn’t explicitly state that market manipulation and insider trading is an inevitable consequence of capitalism and the creator may not believe it to be, but I would hardly call believing in well-regulated capitalism a reactionary position as it is the default position of the majority of people (at least in much of the world, there are exceptions), even if I personally think it is short-sighted. The video simply treats it like a speculative bubble which is being (supposedly) pushed by some degree of market manipulation, same as any other bubble.

I take particular issue with the comparison of people being uncomfortable with rich people entering a market for the purpose of asset speculation with white nationalists. This has some weird “socialists are just racist against rich people” vibe, although I am sure that this is not what was meant as Frank has clearly stated his opinion on capitalism many times. But nonetheless that’s how the statement came off to me. Similarly the idea that just because some people are concerned about collusion this automatically makes it gamergatey is strange, gamergaters were (and are) bad for many reasons including targeted harassment, reactionay bullshit and yes also some basic misunderstandings of what counts as collusion. But this doesn’t mean that collusion is never bad, particularly in financial matters.

With the information revealed above about Karl Jobst’s past I am of course slightly more sympathetic to your view, although to be clear as far as I can tell from a bit of internet-sleuthing there is no damning evidence that he is currently alt-right and he doesn’t seem to be promoting alt-right ideas or people, but some of his past behavior is in the shady category as far as I can tell (particularly people he associated with). However I may have overlooked something, I have no interest in defending him and if he still has any sympathies for the alt-right, fuck him. The above statements are just about how I perceived the framing of this particular video as someone who had no idea who the guy was.

While I disagree somewhat with the opinions presented, I do appreciate the vigilance in looking for right-wing narratives and who knows, maybe you are more correct than me. So again, please don't take this comment the wrong way @"goonbag"#p42752 .

Finally, I do agree with Frank that the sealed copy speculative asset bubble probably has very little effect on the used game market in general. The fact that it is so clearly speculative and driven by a bunch of rich and semi-rich people looking to make a buck and that is is so clearly separated from the normal market makes it unlikely that it has a large effect. Also, compared to large-scale stock-market manipulation where the fallout of bubbles can effect the whole economy negatively, it is certainly preferable that people play their games in collector’s markets, where the fallout of a burst bubble is relatively contained. I still don’t think it’s a good thing though and I am also not naive enough to think that both things aren’t happening, anyways. I think the game collectors market is mostly attractive to the moderately rich and hustlers so there may not even be much overlap with organizations that engage in the more dangerous forms of market manipulation and speculation.

Also, note that even if everything is done legally and with no illegal market manipulation whatsoever, speculative bubbles happen all the time and the stock market is fundamentally unstable in its current form (many other markets are as well, but the stock market is by far the worst). In that sense I agree that just focusing on the bad actors is not enough, the system itself even when it runs as intended leads to bad outcomes.

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@SU2MM No offence taken and I appreciate that we’re having this conversation because it’s important to unpack these things collaboratively.

A couple of things I want to note - the first is that you’re right about my bias, when I hear someone with a platform has had flirtations with the right, I’m inclined to interpret their work in a much more unsympathetic way. Still, I would say that it’s worth identifying when an argument is flawed in ways that happen to play into right-wing tropes, even if it’s purely unintentional.

And on that note I’d like to draw focus back to Jobst’s framing of the speculators as a threat to the shared identity & cultural heritage of Real Gamers. This is the element of his video that casts the rest of his argument in a concerning light imo, because otherwise it is as you say mostly comparing video game speculation to previous speculative bubbles. His overall argument is not simply “these guys are doing what speculators have done in other markets many times throughout history and it’s a bubble that will inevitably burst”. He’s saying “these guys are doing something immoral that directly threatens us, our identity, our shared culture, our way of life”. That’s qualitatively different.

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didn‘t realize the insert credit pizza would include olives . . . tho I should’ve suspected this

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@dicegame when you have 0lives you have to insert credit to continue playing

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@beets clicking “like” does not do this post justice

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will Mr. Cifaldi be adressing the monopolistic, price gouging behavior of a certain foundation mass purchasing all extant copies of vintage GamePro magazines??? Clear evidence of collusion with kotaku.com, by his own admission no less. I will be raising these concerns in my forthcoming multipart series of youtube video essays

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One minor data point re: Karl Jobst’s alignment with or sympathy towards the alt-right that I did catch in one of Karl Jobst’s newer videos, I can’t remember the exact context but it was in one of the ones I think about Billy Mitchell or that other loser threatening to sue Karl, or perhaps he was talking about that hypothetically happening publicly or something, and on Twitter…

Actually I just went and found the tweet, and just know he did mention it specifically in a video:

https://twitter.com/karljobstgaming/status/1397770889593196548

I mean, I do want to emphasize I think this is a pretty minor data point. But it’s not nothing, considering it wasn’t that long ago and you would think the stink off of notch would still be extremely toxic. Like, Karl Jobst coulda just ignored it, right?

I don’t know what this says, but if I had to give my impression, I’d probably guess that Karl Jobst is one of those Enlightened Centrists who fall hard on classical liberal values like free speech and public civility/decorum. I can definitely hear in my head in his very Aussie accent something like “there’s no reason why we can’t all be civil in our professional lives and when we all share a hobby, and besides, they’ve always been kind and courteous to me.” You know, the sort of person who would not understand how the really insidiously effective right wing radicalism these days really does include quite a lot of careful compartmentalizing of their politicized behaviours and stances, in order to maintain a presence in the general public. Not understanding if outright refusing to believe that I think the whole point is that they are careful to make being Upstanding Citizens a public matter, partially to be able to say that their bigotry is a purely private matter that has no basis in how they relate to people as blonde haired and blue checkmarked as famous speedrunner guy Karl Jobst (the “everyone is entitled to their opinion on ice cream flavors and blood libel” effect).

I don’t know how intentional it is for a loser like notch at the end of the day but I do know some people do indeed approach that sort of thing with that level of deliberation, and fascists hijacking liberalism to lend legitimacy to fascism and to keep their platforms safe is very well documented at this point. Karl Jobst does seem to Earnestly Nice to be a real fash, but he does also seem like the sort of dork who would get too easily led by the nose by fascists too.

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@beets hoooooooly shit [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/kRPip1p.gif]

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@exodus pls tell me what repair shop you’re using, my CRT needs a lil love.

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I claim a partial victory by getting Shadow the Hedgehog put into retirement. I also claim Jazz Jackrabbit as the rightful runner-up and heir to the throne of gun-totin' mascot.

And according to the forum search tool, nobody has mentioned Blake Stone outside of the context of Violence Island. Someone go play _Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold_ again and make a thread.

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i really appreciate this EPISODE :slight_smile:

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I was very upset with what Frank had to say regarding WATA/Heritage. I‘ve basically been stewing over it since listening two days ago. I’m glad to find that some people feel similarly, and that it's at least somewhat being addressed in this thread.

However, it's pretty frustrating to see the framing of the conversation repeatedly pulled back to the possible motivations and worldview of the person that put together the video - rather than public information and public actions of the companies in question that are compiled therein. The video draws on a number of things that some of us have been paying attention to since that 2019 newsmaking auction or earlier, information that outlets that are not Karl Jobst's channel are now reporting on and investigating.

I'm not posting to prove anything or to get further proof about WATA , Heritage, or anyone associated with them. Before that video finally drew significant attention to what's been going on over the last few years, I already knew enough about these organizations and some of the people involved to think they are quite shitty. If something provably illegal has been done or not, I'm still going to hold that opinion regardless, though it's certainly always nice to see the rare case where there may actually be consequences for this type of thing.

If you want to question my motivation - My interest in old games lies entirely in game history as well as playing them myself both for fun and to contextualize their history. I have never been what anyone would call a collector. I have no need for more plastic in my home. I sometimes pay attention to the state of game collecting and the market for such things as an aside to my interest in them. I find it slightly neat at its best, completely repugnant at its worst. That's a perception I've held for many years before the existence of the companies we're talking about.

What I do have is an extremely strong disgust toward scams, misinformation, hoaxes, cons, grifts, etc and so on. Being incorporated and having shareholders and the air of legitimacy that supposedly adds does not suddenly make shitty behavior "just how things are" or "just capitalism." It doesn't make bad actions more acceptable than it would be for your average ebay scammer or the ugliest voices in every collectors' forum. It makes them much worse.

There's some legitimacy to the attention that's been drawn to these organizations, but what I heard on the podcast was complete dismissal - and the message that for believing there's something untoward about them meant that I was either a conspiracy theorist, laughably naïve, and/or a gatekeeper. Further comments on twitter seem to impart the perspective that I have no grounds to be upset about any possible bad actions if I'm not directly impacted, which is also not a great take.

It sure would be nice to see or hear some of these things addressed rather than the deflection of digging into who some youtuber does or doesn't reply to on twitter.

edit because I can’t shut up:

And is pointing out someone as Jewish and therefore a possible target of a veiled alt-right attack by a guy that makes clickbaity videos about speedrun cheating _really_ more relevant than having caught FTC charges for inflating values in a different collector’s market? That’s what’s noteworthy about the guy? Really? Were Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers alt-right targets as well?

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You’re not wrong to feel angry about video game speculation & market manipulation. It IS unjust. And it’s perfectly reasonable to feel more outraged when it hits close to home because people are exploiting something you hold dear. But when I hear people say this behaviour is “just capitalism” I don’t think they’re trying to say it’s morally correct or acceptable. They’re saying that this stuff is intrinsic to the system. The financial system is little more than rich people trying to find new ways to scam other rich people out of money without falling foul of regulatory pitfalls, and without caring about how many people get hurt at the bottom of the food chain. It sounds trite but that’s what it is. To say game speculation is “just capitalism” is to say “yes, this is fucked, but it’s the tip of the iceberg of bad behaviour in a system that rewards bad behaviour”.