Ep. 211 - George R. R. Binks the Time Sweeper

@Kez So… what compelled you to kill them then? I agree that it was obvious that you weren’t supposed to kill them, and was only a “gotcha” if you didn’t think about it much, in which case it was probably pretty impactful.

But yeah, everything did tell me not to kill them. So why would I? They’re just wandering around. I don’t like that kind of stuff at all. You’re given a miserable task that’s made more difficult to complete through floppy controls, so… why do it!? To save a young lady we’ve got no emotional connection to? It does not make sense to me.

have you by chance played a game called hitokui no oowashi toriko?

@captain you’ll get them all, one person at a time!

it takes some amount of buy-in or at least passive assent for this to work in [video game of your choice]. The example for this falling flat in my experience was in “No Russian” where I just thought this is just real dumb and I don’t want to do this for the sake of a room temperature tom clancy shooter

so I guess if the other audiovisual/experiential/gameplay aspects of SoTC didn’t grab you then why slog through it. But I would defend the narrative of SoTC of being more straightforward desperate death/debasement drive than other mid 2000’s “gamer intellectual” video games (Braid)

Anyway I watched a good part of a TLG playthrough and that game was pretty neat. It’s good you’re carrying the torch @captain

Also liked seeing the 300 youtuber TLG ending reaction thumbnails where they’re just crying their eyes out lol

I’m currently on year 16 of my pacifist playthrough of SotC

This whole conversation has me thinking on how different the approach to fiction can be from person to person, basically, what Brandon was saying here:

I had never thought of it, but I guess my suspension of disbelief when approaching a game, a book or a movie is more or less also a suspension of belief? Which is to say, I don’t personally feel the pull to completely apply my way of seeing the world and how things should be. That is to a degree of course, if I see swastikas or a rape scene then it’s the eject button right there. So, since it’s not a matter of having boundaries or not, but how wide or generous they are, it’s entirely reasonable if someone else’s are in a different spot! In the end is just a matter of flexibility, I guess. And maybe I am too flexible, I just said I played a game I didn’t like a second time just because I refused to believe it was that bad!

Just another way of saying what @yeso is putting forward here, although I would apply it not only to videogames, but to every byproduct of culture. If there is particular element that a person finds dislikeable, and there are also other issues (like the already discussed controls) it’s completely normal that said person decides not to put themselves through it. But at the same time, if another person is capable of relativizing those aspects or not finding them as abrasive, while also finding that they like other sides of the thing, like the art direction, the architecture, the sound design, the music, the quality of the animations, the fact that you can ride a cool horse, etc. I’d say that’s pretty reasonable too! So in the end the question of “why do that?” kind of ends up being answered by “why not?”

I actually meant “why do it” in a more empathy-oriented way. If you realize the colossi are innocent and just roaming around, why kill them, other than because the game tells you to? If the game gives you hints that these are gentle creatures, why would you laboriously kill them? I am curious about the motivation for folks who see that the game is telling you these creatures are just hanging around, who then go and kill them anyway. Is it maybe the external pressure of folks saying the game is good, so it propels you forward?

Sotc very much reminds me of being a vegetarian in this way, odd though that may be to say!

As cool as it would be to see a dedicated message or thanks credits, Berserk is owned by Hakusensha (which is owned by Hitotsubashi like Shūeisha and Shōgakukan) so From Software (i.e. Kadokawa) needs to be careful how much they officially acknowledge Miura’s influence, at least without checking with Hakusensha beforehand. Not helping: Hakusensha’s Boss is a legendary pain in the butt to whom you don’t want to owe anything. Japan just works that way.

I felt this question was acknowledged and answered in the game.

I did not enjoy The Last Guardian very much but I am very appreciative that Ueda always tries new stuff. I see him as one of the few genuine innovators in the industry, always trying to transpose real life emotions into video games.

Unfortunately, I am usually always disappointed at the result compared to what my mind expected from the PR. Ico ended up being not very interesting IA-wise. The “level design” of the colossi was on average pretty disappointing (although that is my favorite game among them). The Last Guardian had so many bugs at launch that I could never tell what was a bug or the dogcatbirdthing being a dipshit on purpose.

I would love to see the current Zelda team (i.e. a talented game design team with adequate debugging budget) take a stab at a similar idea as The Last Guardian. In general, I find A.I. still really under-explored in video games.

man , i wish The Last Guardian was Tamagotchi The Movie The Game

speaking just for myself here, I’m playing the role of Wander going and killing the creatures—I know he would do it, he is doomed to do it, I have no idea who the woman is but I know he will try to bring her back at any cost, and I guess that is (was) enough to motivate me to see how he changes and grapples with the horrible task he must perform (on top of all the other stuff I get out of these Ico games—floppy jumps woohoo!!!)

HOWEVER given that it later turns out the “creatures” are in fact vessels housing the divided soul of the malevolent voice in the ceiling who told you to go attack them in the first place, can we say the player is indeed killing autonomous beings? Does it matter? I feel this demands analysis of THE LORE which I find dull, but, nevertheless, what if a player should be aware of that information going in? Does that change things?

Well, then I’d like to apologize for misunderstanding the question! For what it’s worth, and just in case it helps you to reach that understanding, my answer then would be because I didn’t entirely read the game those ways you describe?

My interpretation of the whole thing was more mythical/mythological/symbolic. It reminded me of all those stories where humans have to kill a godlike being in order to gain the ability to read, to cultivate crops or stuff like that. Sure, it’s pretty violent and not super pleasant to be a part of, but also something that I don’t feel inclined to judge that way? And since the whole thing is ordered by basically a god, who is asking you to break the seals that have them trapped, I feel like it’s reasonable looking at it that way.

There is also the matter of there being also a fair amount of hints that kind of give away that the colossi are not entirely alive/entirely natural. Some of them have mechanical parts, for example, or are able to do stuff like throwing energy bolts, which reads more as “machine-like” than “alive” or “organic” to me personally. Magical puppets, automatons, etc. They also instantly turn into rock and sand when defeated, which is something that regular animals don’t do either, and that’s a detail that makes me want to look at it through another of those myths, the one about the golem, a creature made out of mud/clay which isn’t alive because it doesn’t have a soul etc.

And full disclosure, when I played the game at fifteen, I did do it because I thought it was cool in the same way it would seem cool to have a game about killing dragons, but even then I didn’t feel like the game was entirely just that, and I think it goes to show that if I have been thinking about it and replaying it through another 16 years is because, at the very least, I perceive some nuance and complexity in the game other than just kill innocent animals and having a blast doing so.

I thought about you being vegetarian from the beginning and was wondering if maybe that had something to do with your stance, but was too scared to ask it in case it sounded frivolous or facetious or something :smiling_face_with_tear: I’ll just say that if that’s the case, I honestly think it’s one of the best reasons to dislike not just this game but probably any game.

Ah… I see. And yes, it’s not the first of these type of stories I hear. What a bummer, though! I really feel like the gesture is in order. And thanks for the explanation, too :)

Also for what it's worth (and I realize this is my third message in a row, sorry!!!) while I played SotC to completion and I still like it to this day, I plainly refuse to touch any Far Cry, Asscreed, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc. because there are few things I fucking hate more in videogames than killing animals for sport and vanity items. I completely and wholeheartedly despise that particular mechanical conceit.

And I generally have a bad time playing Monster Hunter too (I trick myself by capturing the monsters and telling myself it's fine), because I do see those as animals minding their own business!

Symphony of the… castle?

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@穴 same, every single time…

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@exodus I guess I just bought into playing out the character’s arc, I accepted that this was the path that the character was on and roleplayed what they would do. Games and other media are like a ‘safe’ way to experience negative feeling and emotions in a sort of low-stakes environment. I generally find I get a lot more out of a piece of media where everything is grimy and rotten people do horrible things than I do out of something feel-good where everything wraps up happily.

So when I go along with the game, and kill all the monsters that it makes me feel bad to kill, I still want to feel those things. In the same way that when I play a horror game, I still go into the scary room even though I sort of don’t want to.

Gonna be honest I thought we were talking about Shadow of the Comb-raider (starring Lara Coiffed)

I bought Ico with my PS2, played it through and really enjoyed it. I haven’t revisited it.

I fired up Last Guardian for the first time about a year ago and was very excited to try it out. I decided, “the game environment is pretty, but I don’t like the puzzles because I feel like the puzzles are about deciding if the game art is playable geometry or set dressing”. The funny thing is I just realized this is the exact same reason the IC panelists rag on mid-90s Virgin Interactive games (e.g. :worm: Jim) which I never had a problem parsing.

I haven’t played The Last Guardian and am basing this off of just poking through a longplay of it, but it poses an interesting question about communication and aesthetics in level design, if not also by extension just how much information a game should communicate to the player at any time.

I think we can all agree that just having glowing markers or big obtrusive arrows pointing players toward the critical path at all times can make for a pretty unengaging experience. However, I think we could also all agree that the feeling of being unable to find the critical path and not being given feedback as to what you need to do or where you need to go to keep playing the game is perhaps even more disruptive to a game feeling engaging, if not outright alienating.

Again, I haven’t played The Last Guardian, but the impression I get is that, kind of like how I’ve been saying with regards to the animations being fluid and expressive detracting from how the game feels to control, making the environments look naturalistic seems to take precedent over them being navigable/comprehendable, to the detriment of the ongoing challenge of communicating where you’re supposed to go and what you’re supposed to do to go there. I’m purposefully flitting here and there through this longplay on Youtube, and while that doesn’t give any meaningful substantiation to the claim that it would be disorienting to navigate as a player, I do feel it is fair to say that it looks like it would be.

The favorable position on this aspect of The Last Guardian would, I think, say that if you’re observant you will eventually grok the game’s visual logic and that perhaps the trial and error of more opaque sections and the commitment to a naturalistic visual design are part of its charm. And the unfavorable one would be that that depends on having a generous attitude towards the game in the first place, and if a game without them is ever making you feel like you wish it had glowing arrows and button prompts (or perhaps, to bring up something Tim said way back in 2008 on his actionbutton.net review of Bioshock that I continually think about, an “I Get It” Button), then something is lacking in the communication department. With regards to The Last Guardian neither side is correct or incorrect and it comes down to taste or tolerance as always, both sides I think are seeing something that is definitely observable within the game, though.

More often as technology and design have progressed, a 3D game world’s relationship to realistic physics and geometry, and how players can expect understand, want, expect, to be able to interact with it, has allowed videogames to operate on this, shall we say, kinesthetic, physicality oriented level. By which I mean, in understanding the movement or navigation capabilities of the player character, the player can more or less assume that the boundaries of physical interaction with the game world are closer to how we understand space and movement in the real world than in videogame terms. And, following from that, how interacting with said physical space becomes involved in the gameplay. If this all sounds mundane, I do mean much more than knowing you can walk down a hallway or jump up on to a ledge, more like how knowing your player character can jump 1m off the ground and reach up 200-300cm or whatever, a ledge 1.1m high is something the player character can grab the edge of and climb up on to, without a glowing edge or a pattern or color along said edge that communicates it as climbable, which, at a certain point, is not all that different from a glowing arrow at the top of the screen pointing you toward it.

We’ve had illusions of varying levels of convincingness of this quality for a while–in order to find Assassins’s Creeds’s 1s’s highest scalable buildings, all you need to do is find wagons full of straw or hay and look up to find the nearest conspicuous piece of identical wooden… scaffolding? And you can be sure that you will be able to climb up the nearest high tower. Whether you think the game is fun or not, I think there is something different going on in how one interacts with the game world Death Stranding entirely. Most features of the environment aren’t color-coded or marked with sparkles or placed next to identical models of wagons full of straw to indicate how one can or cannot interact with them. Of course it doesn’t map 1:1, not even close (arguably Death Stranding with more grounded physicality to it would be truly awful to play, and that’s coming from someone who chose to do their first playthrough on hard), and there’s still videogame logic especially along the margins of accessible space, but for a significant part of the accessible space of the game, walking through a rocky field and up or down slopes while wearing a heavy backpack can be informed by having walked through a rocky field and up or down slopes while wearing a heavy backpack in the real world with your physical body. A field strewn with many watermelon sized rocks is not strewn with small rocks just because it’s an interesting aesthetic, our player character will not effortlessly glide over small rocks as if the ground is just a texture layer, or slide along the sides of larger ones because running up against a solid object at a sharp angle doesn’t decrease the player character’s speed like they’re Mario long jumping on to a slope. I’ve ranted and raved about The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild in this regard on this very forum in the past (I think) but it’s the same thing there. It’s less level design and more geography design.

Uh, okay, where was I going with all of this? Oh yeah. The Last Guardian, again, at least to me having not played it (jeeze I should just fuckin play it at this point (maybe the next time I have an active PS Plus subscription)), looks like it wants to give the impression of having that sort of kinesthetic/tactile/physically grounded world design, but perhaps falling short of designing said world with enough care to prevent those moments where you run into a proverbial invisible wall or wish there were proverbial wagons full of proverbial hay.

Game design questions–should a ledge be climbable just because its design ended up in the final product looking like it should climbable? Or, should designers only allow players to explore spaces that are strictly relevant to gameplay, or at least might give you an interesting vantage point on gameplay relevance?

Another thing that comes to mind is how often weird little nooks and crannies and vantage points and obscure corners in Super Mario Odyssey, some of which only seem to be accessible if you know advanced maneuvers not needed to complete the game at all, ended up having not Moons but often just some coins hidden in them. It gives the impression the game was exhaustively playtested, or profoundly understood by its developers, if not both, and while you don’t get some especially unique secret, you do come away from that feeling seen, and in the future further encouraged to explore and experiment.

I would most often feel delighted when I found a spot like this, but I gotta wonder. At what point does it end up feeling like it’s own sort of predictable tedium? Does it end up being more exciting when we find a spot that took effort/creativity/skill to get into but that doesn’t have coins, meaning it is so obscure as to be a place the designers didn’t predict players would try and get into?