Final Fantasy Thread

I would make the case that defining terms on first use is not necessary for narratives to work. Narratives very often make allusions or references that are not immediately clear. The second line of Final Fantasy VII is “Wow! You used to be in SOLDIER all right! …Not everyday ya find one in a group like AVALANCHE.” There is a little bit of setup, but not anything like a definition. From the short conversation, all one knows is that they’re groups, Cloud was once one, and he quit. We don’t need to go into a lore book or a footnote to roll with what’s going on.

I can imagine players having a different level of tolerance for the suspension of unknowing. When I teach the first lines of Paradise Lost, we spend a fair amount of time parsing the first sentence and talking about what we get and don’t get, both on a syntactic level and on the level of references. Even a casual reader can understand that, hey, this is about Adam and Eve. They may miss all the stuff with the Heavenly Muse, Oreb, Sinai, that kind of stuff. They may miss what the main verb of the sentence is:

OF Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit
Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal tast
Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,
With loss of Eden, till one greater Man
Restore us, and regain the blissful Seat,
Sing Heav’nly Muse, that on the secret top
Of Oreb, or of Sinai, didst inspire
That Shepherd, who first taught the chosen Seed,
In the Beginning how the Heav’ns and Earth
Rose out of Chaos: or if Sion Hill
Delight thee more, and *Siloa’*s brook that flow’d
Fast by the Oracle of God; I thence
Invoke thy aid to my adventrous Song,
That with no middle flight intends to soar
Above th’ Aonian Mount, while it pursues
Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhime.
And chiefly Thou, O Spirit, that dost prefer
Before all Temples th’ upright heart and pure,
Instruct me, for Thou know’st; Thou from the first
Wast present, and with mighty wings outspread
Dove-like satst brooding on the vast Abyss
And mad’st it pregnant: What in me is dark
Illumin, what is low raise and support;
That to the highth of this great Argument
I may assert Eternal Providence,
And justifie the wayes of God to men.

For some readers, getting the gist and going with the flow of the narrative is great fun. For others, they would find that an agonizing experience. “Why doesn’t the poet just say what he wants to say?”

I’m not arguing that Final Fantasy XIII (or any FF) is like Paradise Lost. I’m just drawing an analogy to how people can read and enjoy something without having definitional clarity of what’s being mentioned.

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Ok, maybe not “define” a term, but at least place it in context.

I don’t need to know how many gil a loaf of bread costs, but if you have someone saying “I just want Gil” without any hint that it’s a currency, I may as well assume Gil is their hot coworker.

In any case, FFXIII’s opening does not work for me on an emotional level like almost every other FF opening does.

EDIT: Also, I’m just a science major. I would argue that expecting the audience of a mass-marketed multimedia product to approach it like a literature major is asking too much.

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I would argue that FFXIII does this with l’Cie: Sazh says that initial line to a scared child, who visibly relaxes after it (with a little help from Chocobo). This tells the audience that l’Cie are frightening, whatever they are. Further details are ahead, but the player has as much context as they need in that moment (but only if they’re willing to extend the storytellers the trust I mentioned before)

I don’t think you need to be a literature major to approach the game at all, but you do need to be an active reader, which I don’t think is too much to ask. Not asking that of the reader is how we see the depth and breadth of stories deteriorate over time, both in games and other mediums. There’s a place for stuff like Marvel movies in entertainment and in games, sure, but it’s not a sin for some games to strive to be more than just popcorn fare. People need more than popcorn in their metaphorical media diet, after all

As was said above, FFXIII isn’t Paradise Lost (even if it is something of a bong-hit riff on the Norse Ragnarok), but I think it’s better overall that it tries to treat the audience’s intelligence and capacity for reading critically with respect. More works should do so, in my opinion, as over time this can both curate these things in the audience and allow for storytelling in media generally to grow and deepen (which is especially important for games, as they are still young as a storytelling medium)

If we only look at big games as mass-market products, we can’t ever have that in them, and I personally can’t accept that as the limit for games’ potential as works of interactive narrative

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I’ll concede that I may have been a bit reductive on my take.

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I would wonder how many North Americans actually played the game before weighing in on it. To chazumaru’s point, there was some degree of gamer cred attached to having an opinion about big games like FFXIII, but having an anonymous internet opinion certainly doesn’t entail playing the game. Not to once again put too much faith in my own juvenile recall of Internet politics from 15 years ago, but the way conversation about the game repeated the same talking points in the same language suggests to me that some people were parroting the same handful of Youtube videos back and forth. I distinctly remember hearing the repeated point that one need only “press [ / ] to win” which immediately suggested to me the person hadn’t gotten very far in the game—I regularly had difficulty with the battle system, having never gotten a handle on it myself (probably down to ignoring equipment pretty much entirely), and found that pressing absolutely was not the only action required to win! The few people I did know IRL who played FFXIII—standard game-playing 15-year-old boys—went on to play both sequels, something not even I did.

I didn’t like FFXIII very much after taking two years to finish it, but the online hatred did strike me as a lot of groupthink/dogpiling drowning out earnest criticism. I didn’t think I would ever play it again, but I have to admit since you joined these forums @sapphicvalkyrja I have been seriously considering it. 15 years’ distance from that original playthrough—when I did understand the basic l’Cie/fal’Cie vocab but still had a hard time finding my way into the story (never really got what Barthandelus was doing)—should make it pretty interesting.

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I’ve long had similar thoughts, honestly. In many ways, I’ve wondered if FFXIII was something of a strange look into the future of what we would see surrounding the current climate of gamer outrage. Those cultural forces hadn’t coalesced into the wave of what we would later know as GamerGate yet, but you see a lot of the same memetic repetition of criticism, often with only grains of truth to them (and more veiled misogyny than what we would see, mask-off, in the years to come)

I recently revisited it after about 10 years’ distance myself (got a whole playthrough of the PC version sitting on an external SSD) and while my experience was certainly different than the one you might have given my status as an original true believer, I had a great time even though I was kind of treating it like “work.”

If nothing else, the game’s visuals hold up staggeringly well and the soundtrack still absolutely rules. I hope that you do come back to it and that you enjoy yourself! I won’t spoil what Barthandelus is doing—perhaps something will click for an older and more wizened captain

The battle system is still my favorite in the series, too, even if they take somewhat too long in letting the player really, well, play around with it. Once you have the full Crystarium and all six of the roles at your fingertips, it feels like the most active of the Active Time games (and I love the rhythm the game gently coaxes you into by rewarding full ATB after a Paradigm shift as long as you’ve been in the current Paradigm for one full ATB cycle)

In any case, if my time here inspires even just one person to re-evaluate FFXIII, I will be able to die happy on my little hill, so I’m glad to hear you’re thinking about replaying!

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Just throwing in my two cents to let you know that this might be the final push I needed to give FFXIII another try!

I started playing the game multiple times but never got to the part where the world opens up (at least I heard there was one, I dunno, never got there!)

I personally was never really confused about the plot of the game at all. That felt relatively straightforward to me. Sure it started in medias res but that wasn’t too hard to understand.

The stuff I mostly was confused about was the overall world building. Like I knew what was happening but never really grasped where it was happening. The Fal’cie/L’cie stuff didn’t bother me it was more like: I’m underground and there’s a place called cocoon and it’s flying in the air and there’s also a place on the ground of which I’ve forgotten the name. Am I underground on the ground place? Am I in the cocoon place? Is cocoon a moon/planet or is it artificial?

I’m not necessarily blaming the game for that but I do remember reading codex entries and not feeling particularly enlightened about that aspect of the lore. It might’ve also been a translation issue since I played the German version but the whole geography of the game remained a mystery to me.

I generally liked the game but always ran out of steam somewhere on the way. The battle system seemed fun and innovative though the whole way equipment worked, never clicked for me.

At the time I was 18 and while I was online a lot, I didn’t really frequent places where people share opinions on games so I was relatively insular in my opinions. I thought Lightning was cool. I didn’t like Snow at all because I never got over the initial dude bro poser impression he gives off and I never got to the point where he experienced significant enough character development to break through that initial impression. Scenes with Hope always carried a lot of sadness and drama but I didn’t really mind because he was a child that just recently had lost his mother.

I do have the game for PS3 but I’ll probably wait until it’s on sale on steam to buy it. Might buy the other games in that trilogy while I’m at it and check those out too.

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I’m like that sicko looking in the window comic right now, lol. Much the same as with captain, I hope you enjoy yourself if you pick it up!

Cocoon is an artificial floating continent, more or less, yes, and where the first half or so of the game takes place. Gran Pulse (or often just Pulse to residents of Cocoon) is the “ground place.” How they’re related spatially becomes more clear as you progress the story

The equipment system is a bit…arcane, I guess, in that way older Final Fantasy games were at the time. I was used to GameFAQs for the games at the time so I ended up using one of those to max out weapons and the like for my Platinum run of the game (and went back to the same FAQ a decade later on the PC version, lol)

The Steam version ran perfectly well for me when I did my recent playthrough, though I have heard some folks say it has a lot of issues, so one’s mileage may vary. The best part about the PC version is the higher frame rate (though I have a personal bugbear with the fact that you can’t get PlayStation controller inputs on it since I use one of those for my PC gaming too, lol)

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I love reading all this on FFXIII! I also wanted to share a little about my personal history. I played FFXIII in a vacuum where I didn’t have any idea what the broader critique was, and my initial disappointment was because FFX and FFXII were such lush, people-centric worlds. I was frustrated that FFXIII didn’t give you a break to just walk around and go to shops and hang out. I also didn’t particularly care for Snow’s machismo or the very slow unraveling of the tech tree. I enjoyed the actual story and battle system, but when I got to Gran Pulse, the game’s newfound freedom and difficulty spike frustrated me into quitting.

Around 2012 ish (pre-mayan calendar), I became aware of the online discourse which had metastasized into all-out hatred of the game. Any legitimate complaints were drowned out by things that I didn’t think were fair criticisms. The way I observed people people being sexist toward Lightning was a little different than the way people were sexist toward Vanille. Both very superficial and regressive readings of their characters. I was mostly seeing this stuff on Reddit and maybe a little youtube. I was on the GameFAQs forums for X,X-2,XII but I don’t recall going there during XIII.

For Lightning, she was reduced to being an ‘angry/sour bitch’ and people seemed to ignore the tone the game was seeking to create or expect her to be something she was never designed to be. She was not motivated by anger, she was motivated by urgency and the anger/coldness/impatience was the result. She was also blamed for being humorless, unlike a Squall or a Clive (who equally don’t attempt humor) it felt like a double standard and a main protagonist getting blame for the game’s broader shift in tone. Even though she was the same sort of “badass” who was in control of her emotions like male protagonists before and after, the men observing her did not view those traits as being “cool”. Women with that personality aren’t perceived that way. The archetype of what a cool woman was at the time was very narrow and required you to be a little self-effacing. I know because I have adopted it as a bit of a defense mechanism, to be able to ‘hang with the guys’, rather than being able to embrace a more serious demeanor. To use contemporary examples, think of how Jennifer Lawrence was perceived compared to Kristen Stewart.

Tidus/Vaan got shit for being too feminine! For showing too much emotion and being pretty boys. They are also victims of a certain type of person dismissing a character because it doesn’t adhere to a strict and arbitrary gender roles, in the same vein as Lightning.

Vanille got it worse, because her criticism was reduced to being ‘shrill/annoying’. Playing alone, I found her voice acting to be mysterious and intriguing, but it seems like a lot of men used it to dismiss her and whatever she was talking about. She was a very critical character in terms of the plot and also explaining important things about the world to the player. I think a lot of people dismissed what she was talking about out of pocket, and thus were much more confused about the worldbuilding then if they took her more seriously.

I think JRPG fans also put a lot of their frustrations about the ‘7th Generation’ in general on this game. It was a difficult transition to HD for japanese developers, and when this was on of the only JRPGs on the expensive PS3 for half of its lifespan, I think it wore people down. It was also an era where people online were very hostile toward things for being “too japanese”. I think people who even like these games might have resented FFXIII for being harder to defend online because of the criticisms (both fair & bad faith). It felt like it wasn’t until Ni No Kuni that people on the internet had anything nice to say about any japanese game during that period.

My journey with FFXIII is in a great place though, at one point probably around 2016 I went back having accepted the game for what it was and found the characters to all be great, and their interpersonal conflicts are probably the most interesting of any PS3 game. I came around 180 on Snow, and I appreciate all of the lore and what they were trying to accomplish with Fabula Nova Crystallis.

If we all decide to have a game club warp zone FF13 replay, count me in!!

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Please let’s do this. It seems like there’s constant FFXIII chat all across IC lately. I want to give XIII another shot and that’d be perfect motivation. I played it for about an hour a few months back and fell off on it. When it came out I watched a friend and also my partner at the time play it and I didn’t much care for it - and I doubt that will change but I want to play it for myself and give it a fair shake.

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:clap::clap: FFXIII Game Club let’s go! :clap::clap:

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I’m in! Literally. I’m about 2.5 hours in to XIII and I’m enjoying my time with it quite a bit. I’m also getting strong FFX vibes off of the structure and the pacing, structure, and design of the game. The dungeon/level design seems to flow you forward very directly. Yes I know that this is criticism that was very directly leveled at the game when it came out, but I don’t see that it’s much different than FFX.

One of the things that has struck me is how modern the game feels in its design. If you told me this was a proto-Miyooverse mobile design, I might believe you. Your health is refilled after every battle. This makes it feel that individual battles have larger stakes. There aren’t even experience points! (Though I’m told that those come in later.)

I also came to talk about the Datalog as it ties directly into the conversation that @adashtra was having about in-game lore books on one of the recent episodes. I’m not sure that I’m going to dive into it very much myself, but it sure seems like there’s a lot to like if you’re that kind of person.

And as far as the characters go, I think they’re all neat. Sahz’s voice actor particularly knocks it out of the park. I don’t like Hope though. He’s just a broody teen (so far).

But like all video games, especially ones from 15 years ago, the drama isn’t always well-executed. My favorite example is this scene about 30 minutes or so in.

Snow: “Oh no! I’m gonna die!”
Big Explosion
Unnamed Woman: “Moms are tough! :+1:
Another Big Explosion
Unnamed Woman: Dies

:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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Let’s do it! I’m in - WARP ZONE Game Club - Final Fantasy XIII

(Apologies to oomf @Hunter – I’ll check out Nier Replicant later but Lightning is calling to me! I also don’t feel like continuing with FF16 lol)

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Had a hard time with FFXIII for other reasons as well:

  1. I had just played Chrono Trigger and FFVI, and two months after buying/starting XIII played VII: I was primed for the classic FF format, which literacy did not map well onto XIII’s systems.
  2. I do still have a sense that XIII’s enemy corridors were somehow more repetitious than those other FFs, but maybe my inability to grasp the battles made it feel that way in making every battle take several minutes to get through.
  3. I sold what is now one of my favorite games, which at the time belonged to my brother and which is now extraordinarily expensive, to get 50% off of Final Fantasy XIII. The emotional baggage this has saddled me with cannot be overstated.

Absolutely. It’s “interesting” to see what some of the specific Youtubers/Internet game guys I’m thinking of went on to basically make it their whole thing to talk about, what cultural movements they joined, etc…

Well my 2024 resolution to not buy any more games is over but why couldn’t we have decided this before the Steam sale ended darn it lol (note: not actually a problem). Incidentally I was about to start a different WZGC, but that can wait ;)

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I don’t like him because I went to HS with him

yeah, this was me. I was a huge FFT-head by this time. In reply to your above, in my HS community none of my piers were criticizing it much, just playing it. I didn’t have an online internet opinion, but I was a kid IRL who felt the game “wasn’t made for me”. This may have been the first time I ever latched onto the concept of a game not being made for me. I was 16. It was absolutely made for me. But I was wise beyond my years. I was more hyped for Dissidia Final Fantasy and put many more hours into that.

I’m thinking this would be a perfect primer before playing Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth. But With my current life-pace and enormous backlog, Idunno. Especially since I don’t think I want to settle for anything less than a forty inch Cathode Ray Tube for this one. We’ll see.

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Oomf, I’m so excited about this. Enjoy the game!!

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I don’t want to be reductive of this very insightful criticism. I love the conversation happening here and it’s honestly refreshing compared to elsewhere online where it’s just mysogyny all over the place.

BUT I have a rule when reading Angry Gamer Discourse that’s probably not revolutionary around here: If they seem disproportionately angry, well, does the thing involve a woman, or are they not white? Then you’ve found the reason.

It really is that simple.

That aside for a moment, I think XIII was a very linear game that came out in a market fatigued with linear games. If I’m remembering right, this was just before or during the massive shift to open world formats that dominate AAA to this day.

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The original Assassin’s Creed was 2007, and I think it’s fair to say it was more or less the beginning of that shift. Assassin’s Creed II came out at the tail end of 2009 as well, a few months before FFXIII’s release in the west, so it was likely fresh on people’s minds

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Yeah, I’d agree there. And by the time Skyrim came out a couple years later, open world was THE format. Even XIII-3 was largely open world.

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