Megaten megathread

A hedge is nothing, if not a plant fence right?
homer-simpson-bush-gif

Hopefully this collaboration doesn’t extend any further. I don’t want my much loved, genre-bending video game music by the folks at Atlus to be infused with several nu metal tracks about eating bugs or emotionally withholding parents.

Couldn’t fall asleep so I checked Steam and Vengeance is up already. I couldn’t find anything out about PC settings from the couple reviews I read the other day, so for anyone curious it does support 3440x1440 but it’s black bars on the sides. The frame rate can be uncapped. For the few moments I’ve played it seems like the shimmering, poor anti-aliasing, and washed out look of the graphics weren’t solely just a Switch limitation thing.

It’s a little bit disappointing, but hopefully the modding community can iron things out. Oh well, still looking forward to diving in tomorrow/today.

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Only played about two hours of Vengeance so far, having put down the Switch game about 35 hours in. Would probably have been happy enough with the original game with a stable frame rate. Didn’t realise they’d added a chill area to hang out with all your favourite demon buddies. And I can give them gifts??? :scream:

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The best change with Vengeance is Atlus giving Nahobino the “I’ve just finished an 8 hour shift at McDonalds and I don’t want to be lectured” pose.


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I used the ultrawide fix here and am mostly happy with the graphics now. It includes TAA support and I haven’t noticed any bad issues with the jaggies any more. The screen looks cluttered, but it’s still better than black bars:

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I beat the Canon of Vengeance :slight_smile:

Alright, time for some unfiltered thoughts!

Alright, so overall, I think the new route is a lot of fun and story-wise it’s an improvement over the Canon of Creation. I was a bit skeptical about the new route up until around halfway through the second major area (Shinagawa, I think). At that point, you’ve encountered a few new bosses but the CoV does still feel like it’s on the same rails that CoC is on. Even when there’s a new boss, they are fought in the exact same location as the boss they are replacing so it ends up feeling a little low-effort.
It’s only around halfway through the second area that the CoV starts taking some small swings. They start building a dynamic between Tao and Yoko that’s - and this is kind of a low bar - better than any of the other alignment rep dynamics I’ve seen in III, IV, IVA(?), or CoC. Yuzuru, probably the most underserved character in CoC (except Miyazu lol) gets more development as well.
Eventually, this builds to some pretty massive swings in the new third area (Shinjuku). Shinjuku’s the absolute peak of CoV. It’s absolutely enormous and just as fun to explore as any of the base game areas (I’ve always really loved the exploration in this game - it feels like a puzzle trying to navigate your way to items that are visible but not easily accessible). I also think ~vibes~ wise, this is the best CoV’s story gets. Unlike CoC where the Nahobino kinda feels like an unstoppable man on a mission, CoV makes the Nahobino feel very small. There are so many parties involved in the stakes of the world - Bethel Japan vs the Angels vs the non-Angel Bethel branches vs Bethel Egypt vs Onyankopon and Anansi vs whatever Yoko’s doing vs Nuwa + Yakumo vs Shiva plotting in the background vs Mastema vs the Qadistu vs Lucifer. Also even the fiends/demi fiend get some loose mention in the plot as actors. The factions are more clearly drawn this time and a lot of them (e.g. Egypt, Shiva, and Lucifer) that were there in CoC are better woven into the main plot this time around.
Unfortunately, the game sorta funnels you back into the same constraints of CoC after the third area. ~Plot~ decides to take wayyy too many pieces off the board. The Qadistu die(? honestly this was so unclear and felt so lame), Nuwa dies off/onscreen, Egypt decides to stop mattering (despite the dialogue from the very optional and missable side quest here being used in every trailer), Yoko goes away for 10+ hours, Shiva doesn’t do anything until/unless you do his sidequest (same boss fight from the base game)… Despite a few different boss fights, the story pretty much proceeds the same way up until the final boss rush.
Some final rambly thoughts - the Qadistu - very fun until they just disappear. I have no idea why the Nahobino can fuse and summon them. You beat them in a boss fight, sure, but they willingly sacrifice themselves (I guess?) later… It’s not like you killed/subdued them the way you do with most other demons you’re able to summon. Also when you do summon them they would be working directly against their own goals, as opposed to say, Zeus, who once defeated, has goals that align with the Nahobino’s and that makes a lot more sense.
Yuzuru, Miyazu, and Tsukuyomi get more development in CoV which is nice. Dazai, who was probably the best character in CoC, ends up being a really hateable villain which is kinda cool, even if it means he probably gets less development on this route than CoC. Abdiel also gets less screentime. Nuwa kinda gets moved to the back burner but post-Nuwa’s death Yakumo gets some new scenes so that’s kind of a wash
Yoko… just rancid vibes. She’s just an edgelord. I’m sure a lot of fans will like her and they’ll go Chaos because they are edgelords too. Also she’s an Atlus re-release girl, so, that… I’ve seen some VERY generous reads of Yoko’s intentions - “she’s upending the system! she’s an allegory for marxism!” - that I don’t think the text supports. Like, I don’t want to sound too anti-Occupy Wall Street here but the game makes no mention of what the world would actually look like if Yoko were to “upend the system” of the Bull God. It kinda reminds me (in a bad way) of how the Manikins in Nocturne develop a reason (“everyone is equal and happy”) but it gets rejected(!!) partly because only humans can develop reasons but also because ~it is not specific enough to be a reason~!!! Yoko’s ending is not specific enough! Actually, maybe it’s closest to Nocturne’s regular Demon ending. Just emptiness. Even in the final cutscene she admits she has no idea what’s going to happen next, so, congrats I guess. The nahobino does hold her hand in this scene so I’m sure some people will like that…
I got Tao’s ending. It’s a classic SMT ending - you get to create a world with some benefits but very obvious flaws. “You grants everyone’s wishes” is similar to the Persona 5R bad ending. It’s fine and there.
Oh and I like that there’s no neutral ending. I usually hate the neutral endings with fucking Isabeau grunting with a textbox “…” every time two characters disagree. Like, have some morals and commit to them oh my god… This is also why (outside of TDE which is a whole can of worms) Nocturne has the best alignment system.
I’m not sure how I rank SMTVV in my overall SMT rankings. Of the four mainline I’ve played, IV is without a doubt the weakest entry by a very wide margin. I think I’ve come around on Nocturne being the best. I had some doubts just because as, well, games, I think IV:A and V have better gameplay, but Nocturne has great atmosphere, pacing, and the most interesting plot and alignment system. IV:A vs V is tough because I think IV:A’s combat does edge out V. Apocalypse difficulty is some of the most fun I’ve had with any game in years. It’s as hard as people say SMT is supposed to be, and the bosses all feel so clever. People don’t like the story that much but other than the inciting incidents being pretty inane and poorly written, once the plot gets going I do prefer it to IV. The Divine Powers are genuinely interesting and Krishna is just such a charismatic villain. SMT V has the better exploration and better presentation, and with CoV, it might have the better plot now too. V’s combat is pretty great as well, it’s just that the level of challenge is a full step down from Apocalypse (but a step up from Nocturne at least).

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I’m giving up the nahobussy

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I finally finished my play through of the Canon of Vengeance route. I’ve been absolutely luxuriating in the game, just taking my time and trying to squeeze ever ounce of gameplay out of it. Vengeance has improved some of the game’s flaws, but definitely not remedied them. That said, it’s pretty much exactly what I want as a game. It was my favorite game in 2021 and its my favorite game in 2024. Heck, its probably one of my favorite games period.

I’m glad the decisions you make across the story actually impact which ending you get now. I aligned with Yoko just because it seemed slightly more interesting. Still a bit perplexed that I side with her and the game is like, “now still go fight Tiamat anyhow.” The game has all these various interesting characters and factions, but it feels like it doesn’t really pay off any of them. So many characters just abruptly fall to the wayside with no fanfare. It feels weird that there are certain developments that aren’t even covered on screen in the Canon of Vengeance, but the game expects you to take them in stride. For example, Abdiel just showing up with her melon split in two with a demon head poking out her neck hole. Story feels largely the same to me, cool premise and characters, very flawed execution.

The thing that V brings to the table that elevates it above the other Atlus titles is the exploration. I love the level design and the weird apocalyptic dreamscapes. As a proponent of putting a jump button in every single video game, I love that there’s a turn-based RPG with interesting 3D platforming. There’s just something about being able to jump and slide around in these spaces that makes them so much more interesting to occupy for me. The magatsuhi rails were a welcome addition, they’re convenient and its fun to watch the Nahabino Tony Hawk his way across the map. The dungeon designs however remain simply awful. The level design in this game is great, but put a roof on something and everything goes to hell. The new dungeon is just another phoned in, grid-ed piece of junk that seems like it was farted out in a day or two.

There’s a decent bit of negatives to be found, but I just love the combat and exploration so much that it papers over the mistakes. Here’s a couple pics from my play through:

Dumb line that made me laugh a bit too hard:

Probably my MVP and definitely my cutest recruit. Used him from the first Daat up until the fight with Shiva:

Here’s my build I used. It’s great if you want your protag to be largely useless, but on rare occasion cheat code powerful:

Question for anyone else who has played through the game. Were you able to do the Demifiend fight? I’m playing on hard for reference. In this play through I was able to take down Shiva on my first attempt no issue. I then go and try the Demifiend and they absolutely kicked my teeth in. They are able to one shot half my party before I can even make the first move, putting me perpetually behind the eight ball. I think to even have a shot against them I’d have to grind out some essences for certain abilities, which seems like a whole lotta not fun. Even then I think I might have to grind for stat items with my current configuration.

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Yup! I’ve been able to do the superbosses (Shiva, Demi-Fiend, and Satan on CoV and then Masakado and True Masakado on CoC.
For Demi-Fiend there are plenty of videos on Youtube where people cheese him/really abuse the new innate skill mechanics (here and here). Interestingly, compared to the original release, these strats are way lower investment, so you’re really only gonna have to build maybe 2 super demons to do it.
I opted for the strategy I went with in vanilla, which is to build a team of 20+ super demons who I can cycle through. I probably used only about 10 of them in the actual fight but having lots of options was nice and certainly helps with other bosses/challenges the game has thrown my way. You could probably get away with fusing ~5 or so if you’re willing to use a ton of MP healing items rather than just swapping out. That being said, it really didn’t take me long to fuse all the super demons this time around - maybe 5 hours total to go from 0 to 20?
To fuse super demons you need to make sure you have the 5 “Prayer” Miracles (they add stats to your demons upon level up) and whatever the miracle is that gives demons a boost to their stats based on the fusion material. Then, level up the components 20 times each before fusion e.g. if you want to fuse Shiva, you need to give Barong and Rangda 20 grimoires/levels each to get the biggest boost in stats upon fusion.
Everyone on the team needs to either resist, null, drain, or repel phys. Repel/Drain phys on lots of demons makes the fight so much easier because his AI is set to “test” each new demon that gets swapped in by using Deadly Fury on them. By Repelling his attack, you can take away all of his press turns (this also gives you more turns to kill his allies). Additionally, he will always open the fight with Javelin Rain so it’s good to make sure that everyone you start with is immune to the attack
A typical demon build looks like this:

  • (Elemental Attack)
  • High (Element) Pleroma
  • (Element) Pleroma
  • Enduring Soul
  • Abyssal Mask
  • Repel (weakness)
  • Repel Phys
  • [Free slot - Safeguard, Great Mana Spring, High Restore…]

A few demons that are especially good at their jobs would be Nuwa w/ Safeguard, Zeus, Khonsu Ra, Beelzebub (his innate means his Debilitate debuffs 2 stages instead of 1), Baal (his innate can generate free press turns), Odin (good option for attacking DF directly if you don’t want to switch around Nahobino’s build), Inanna (can build her in any element you need coverage for - hits super hard), Yoko . Demeter is the best healer but it’s worthwhile to have more than one. Dark and Fire are the two elements that are most imperative to cover. Pixie will heal the boss so you need to get her off the field ASAP - she’s weak to dark. Parvati and Jack Frost are both weak to fire - Parvati heals the boss and Jack Frost casts Luster Candy for their side, both annoying.

If you’re down to swap Nahobino’s skills/stat spread around, I used the Murakumo build bc that’s what I knew from Vanilla. The new Paraselene Blur build kinda sucks for this fight bc you need to taunt on Nahobino to be consistently targetted (that can get real scary real fast bc Freikugel) and you won’t be able to juke his AI with Repel Phys. I think the consensus is that the best build for this boss fight in particular is the Heavenly Ikuyumi build

The nice thing about having a(n almost) full party of super demons was that I could just walk directly into the Satan fight and figure it out as I went bc I had a ton of options to work with. For that fight it’s like 100% imperative that Nahobino has the skill Luminescent Mirage though.

And then over on CoC - Masakado was fine - harder than Shiva but a very straightforward fight that I think any team of Nahobino + 2 good damage dealers + healer should be able to handle pretty easily. The real thorn in my side was True Masakado. An absolute effing nightmare. I’ve written too much already but his AI is… very curious… It seems like successful attempts (incl. my own) involve playing super aggressively so that you can skip the part where he goes berserk. He might be on a timer or some sort? If not then it’s just a horrible RNG fest

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Yeah, this is what I was talking about when I said I needed to farm some essences. Only Nahabino and like one of my demons that I regularly use in my rotation are null to physical. I think I’d probably have to spend at minimum an hour or two fighting Ongyo-kis for their essences to be able to give this fight a legitimate shot. I fought Demifiend twice and quickly figured out I was getting nowhere without phys protection.

As far as making super demons I don’t have much interest or the resources in that. I used all the statues I’d been saving up all game and all of my grimoires on my current roster. Of the ones you mentioned I do have Odin and Nuwa. I use impaler’s animus instead of safeguard for Nuwa, but same idea there. I just usually lean towards going with demons that have designs I like and are at least somewhat useful as opposed to straight min-maxing everything. That said, most of the demons I’m putting out there aren’t exactly low-tier either. Artemis, Nuwa, Idun are the three I used against Shiva.

I don’t know, I might farm up some essences to see whether I have a legitimate shot at the fight. I’m ride or die with my stupid luck build though, going almost purely luck and using weird builds has been a staple of mine since the first game.

Looking at that skill and some of the others, it seemed like there’s an obvious evasion build that I want to try out if I do another play through. Looking at it on the surface it seems like Nahabino with the passive that does a severe attack on dodge, using the 100% evade support ability while using Onyankopon’s King of Tales on the same turn would be a nasty combo.

Well, I did end up farming essences last night in order to give the fight a shot. I can hang around for quite a while, getting the boss down to about 2/5th HP, but I just don’t have the resources and damage to pull this one out with my current roster and mc build.

I said I was ride or die with my mc’s build and it’s definitely die. His complete lack of damage is just too much to compensate for. It becomes a war of attrition for me and if I don’t get RNG’d to death, I just run out of consumables to keep up the fight. The few things you’d think having a luck build would be helpful for are just not. In the fight Girimekhala is weak to sleep, but sleep is only effective on him about 2/3rds of the time. The boss’s instant death attack probably kills my mc 1/4th of the time and typically wipes out half my party, despite everyone having abyssal mask and my mc having 188 luck. If two or more of my characters are taken by this ability it just sets me back too much and I get Gaea Raged to death. This fight is some real RNG bullshit, the kind of stuff I hate.

@Hunter I see why you said safeguard was good on Nuwa. She was vital for getting quick debuffs and press turns, while doing good damage and impaler’s animus wasn’t helping with that.

I guess one thing of slight interest, I briefly respeced the mc’s stats to see if magic effects poison damage, it does not. I assume only character level matters. I was still doing the same roughly 400 poison damage per tic.

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You’ve got this!! 2/5th HP is really close to the end. I think you’re just a few tweaks away from getting it

Yea I don’t know how to address this really. Abyssal Mask definitely does help but the odds of instakill still always seem way higher to me than they should. Sometimes you just get super unlucky and even with Enduring Soul + the Whittled Goat item you just get hit 3 times and die… I think he only casts it every 25% of HP he loses, but now that there isn’t a way to skip his Mediarahan (there was an easy skip in Vanilla) it’s quite a few casts you have to survive. If your allies keep dying then Revival Chant is a quicker way to get them back in the fight than the usual methods but I can’t say whether it’s worth a skill slot. It’s probably better to just have a backup demons who can be swapped in and resume.

Yea keeping the debuffs and press turns going is pretty important. Safeguard is just a good skill in general for demons with AOE attacks bc these superbosses love to dodge.

If you’ve already re-specced, it might be worth giving Heavenly Ikuyumi a shot. Compared to Murakumo/Paraselene Blur you have way more skill slots to play with so that’s neat. Also damage-wise it’s just better than Murakumo. I think someone calculated out Paraselene Blur as better but that’s under the theoretical that it always gets set up properly and from my experience that’s pretty far from the truth! Sometimes the enemy just ignores you even if you have Taunt or they spend their turns buffing/debuffing/drawing in magatsuhi instead of attacking at all. I think people see the big numbers from Paraselene Blur and get excited but it’s only big numbers once every ~4 turns so…

DO NOT FIGHT TRUE MASAKADO. It is way worse than this. Just a complete RNG fest unless you cheese. Regular Masakado is very manageable though

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Thanks for the encouragement, but I’ve got way less faith in my chances to pull it out.

Uhhhhhh… wait. Mediarahan? I didn’t even know that was in their kit. Unless they cast it and I was confusing it for Parvati’s heal. I’m guessing I haven’t got them low enough to trigger it or I’ve managed to skip it by sleeping the boss. Since my MC is useless I have them go last in the rotation and usually cast slumber vortex with the final action, the boss is probably asleep around a quarter of the time. I do have revival chant on Nahabino, it’s by far the most useful thing he does. I’m guessing for hyper optimized builds revival chant might not have a place, but it’s extremely good for general utility.

I think I’d probably be able to scrape by if I switched the MC to a good build(although learning there is a full heal throws this into question) but I’m too stubborn to change my initial build so I gave up on the fight for now. I started a newborn play through of Canon of Creation. I’ll probably give it another go at the end and I’ll have a MC build this time that isn’t a glorified Pokemon trainer and probably some better demons as well.

It’s likely that you’ve skipped it by sleeping the boss, actually! He will attempt to cast it at 50% HP but if he doesn’t get it off then he’ll never try to do it a second time. In vanilla it was easy to skip by swapping in a Raptor/Avian demon and using the Magatsuhi skill Accursed Poison which debilitates and also tries to cast every status condition on the enemy. In vanilla it prioritized casting Seal which was a good way to skip Mediarahan since he couldn’t use any skills for a few turns. They nerfed accursed poison in vengeance though and I could only ever get it to poison DF (it could still Seal some lower-level bosses and demons throughout my playthrough though).
It seems like there is a big benefit to your build if you are able to consistently sleep him!

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So I blazed through the Canon of Creation and have made it back to the end game again. Gotta say, Cirronup and Idun were huge crutches for me in my previous two play throughs, a few years ago and just previously. I made myself play with demons I hadn’t used, who were close to the enemy level and it was a bit tougher without those two making sure I was always in a good buff/debuff situation.

I had demons I stuck with for extended periods but none of them were valuable long term for me, as much as I like playing with Inugami he’s just not very good. I thought Oberon and Titania were a neat pairing and I used them for a lot of the third Da’at. When I got to the fourth Da’at I immediately got the prayers as soon as possible so I could fuse some super demons. I did not do the responsible thing and fuse good demons, instead I fused suped up Forneus and Decarabia because they had a neat synergy and I like them. Oberon had to go, but I re-fused a Titania because I liked her so much.

So I spent most of the fourth Da’at just using Forneus, Decarabia and Titania. They’re not world beaters, but they’re surprisingly good. Forneus gets a double debuff like Beelzebub, through his innate passive when Decarabia is in the group. Pretty good. Decarabia gets HP/MP regeneration for every action he takes when Forneus is in the group. Extremely good, actually. Decarabia’s regen isn’t a static number, it’s 25% and 15% of his base HP/MP. So if he takes two actions(sometimes three if he uses a magatsuhi skill) he receives a half health heal and was getting around 200 MP. I ended up switching Decarabia into a healer and Titania into a damage dealer, because Decarabia could just use infinite mediarahans and luster candies, despite them costing 150 mp a pop with 0 MP issues. Titania’s innate is a chance to fully revive Nahabino if he dies, sacrificing one demon in the stock. It’s super good, but unreliable cause it triggers about 50% of the time.

This play through I made my Nahabino into a legitimate build. I wanted to try out paraselene blur, but found out late into the game that skill is only available in Canon of Vengeance. So I just continued with my strength build and specced into physical damage, ignoring my wasted points in holy. When I got late into the fourth Da’at and had acquired some good essences I was trying to decide on which physical ability I wanted to use. When I get to a new tier of abilities I test out a few competing ones and pick one to settle on. The first one I tried out was figment slash. It did giant damage numbers that I’ve never seen before with a guaranteed crit, I just gave up on the search and settled on it immediately.

My attempts at the super boss have been wild to say the least. I tried doing it initially with my homies Forneus, Decarabia and Titania. It seems doable with them, but Forneus and Decarabia contribute so little damage that the fights become incredibly extended. A handful of times I made it to about 25% health with them but just typically die to seeing the RNG instakill come out so many times. Not having the patience for the long battles and RNG I pulled some good demons out of my compendium. I started using Nuwa, Idun and Amon. I also pulled Cu Chulainn off my bench, who turns out is pretty darn good for this fight. Cu Chulainn’s Gae Bolg never misses, no matter what and always crits so he’s good for hitting the super boss who is dodge happy and loves to kill my press turns. He does a workman like 750-1500 damage depending on the buff situation, per action which seems respectable to me.

After one or two failed attempts with the new group, I get the super boss down to 2% health. The Final Fantasy victory them is pumping in my head. Buh dun duh dun dun. Just one more round, and I’ve got a full set of buffs. I can survive even a freikugel crit, as long as I’m not double debuffed. Their turn starts: first comes dekunda. Not good. Then debilitate. Bad. Then another debilitate. Real Bad. Okay, just as long as they don’t use frei- shit, it’s freikugel. Okay, it still has to target me AND crit, I’ve got thi- DEAD.

After going away and clearing my head I come back to it a little while later. This time I’ve got it. Like nothing short of an act of God, got it. The super boss is at 5% and I’ve still got both of my cheat deaths. I go to deliver my animus-ed figment slash which will bring him right to the cusp aaaaaand power outage. Well, there was the act of God, YHVH is working against me in game and in real life.

Finally, I come back to it today with a fresh head. I’ve got them on the ropes again, they’re at about 5%. I have no cheat deaths left so I swap in Titania for a chance at cheating death in the worst case scenario. Two of the super boss’s demons are at about 15% health, so I’ve got a very maneagable road to killing the super boss and not have to worry about Gaea Rage. I miss one attack and also underestimate the damage I do, leaving the demon I was attempting to kill at probably ~20 HP. GAEA RAGE - but whaaat the hell? Titania survives it and revives Nahabino. Things are finally breaking my way. I quickly get things resituated and take out the superboss! …except no. You see, at 1% they brought me down a trip on memory lane: dekunda. debilitate. debilitate. fricking freikugel crit.

I’m going to keep beating my head into this brick wall. Why? No damn clue. There’s no reward in game or in self that will be worth it. I hate this fight, it is disgustingly cruel.

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