@TomoftheFog yeah, I‘ve always been pretty skeptical of crt sims on modern displays. However (and now we’re getting a bit outside the thread topic, sorry!) I have played around with some of the HDR CRT shaders in RetroArch and they look amazing on an OLED. One of them, (CRT-Royale I think?) was downright convincing, even. Between the black levels, dynamic range, and hi-res phosphor simulation, I really like where this tech is going. Returning to the topic and hand, this gives me some confidence that devices like the RetroTINK 4K could accomplish the same for upscaling physical consoles.
@kory Please go off topic! I'm glad this conversation is lending itself to new thoughts and opinions =)
One issue I saw with adding any kind of shaders, especially within RetroArch was the black levels just didn't look right. I don't know if it was the light from a CRT TV that did it but it never seemed dark enough - a problem I know outside of an OLED TV happens a lot.
I agree that this is exciting in the ways of where the technology is going. While I don't think it'll ever give us a 100% perfect match to how it looked it's getting closer and closer as time moves on.
I'm also really sold on the 5X but damn it's expensive - I saw getting it to me outside the US adds a good 100 dollars to the price for shipping and taxes =(
@TomoftheFog i think you need black frame insertion and proper hdr gamma to not take the brightness hit but same. looking forward to seeing the retrotink 4k can do as it does function in a similar way, it‘s “simulating” the shadow mask or aperture grille and the “sub pixels” - I think with a nice enough OLED and cable you’ll get results that are good enough to ditch your 200lb trinitron.
@Neko Thanks for the advice! Right now I‘m a position where I could either invest in a good screen and upscaling device or try and find a huge TV to connect the consoles too. I’m open to either option!
One thing I have noticed since we got flat screen TVs is they lack the warmth of a CRT and that's what I find is very hard to recreate even with all the amazing software and hardware out there.
I know it's not a very scientific term but I can't think of another way to describe it!
the light falloff of a crt (and the glow outside of the display) is probably part of it, though I couldn‘t put it into scientific terms, i know what you’re saying.
Hi all! Just so you know I have ordered and almost had everything delivered ready for the project so far - currently in a dispute with the courier who lost a mint in box original JP controller so as you can imagine I am a tad annoyed and then some! I‘ll be glad to share some pictures once that’s sorted though =)
For the CRT TV argument, remember that motion clarity is one of the biggest reasons to get one. The combination of the physical glow of the phosphur and beam of light shot by the electron gun means 0 blur to track moving items in high speed games, especially 2D ones. It doesn't even have to be a fancy set since this is just how CRTs work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM
Should also be noted that Saturn benefits from CRT Composite to blend together dithering patterns, so again - even a cheap set will look great.
If you're looking to save space (and your back) then a 13 inch CRT TV will be plenty. Smaller sets with composite can look sharper too since the pixels are more compact. Just check out local thrift stores and you should be able to nab one for cheap.
@copySave That‘s some amazing info and a great and very interesting video, thanks for sharing it. The two screenshots really showed the difference - and I’ve hoped I've learned enough to know the bottom was taken with a CRT image.
... Right?
@TomoftheFog Correct the bottom is a camera photo of a CRT in action. Top is a raw gameplay screenshot through either a device card/device or an emulator.
Notice how the light shaft and radar have the dithering effects blended to create a transparency on the CRT TV over composite.
@copySave I think looking it, the bottom has the warmth I mentioned before. The beam of light clearly looks harsher on the top image and even the curviture on the dragon looks smoother on the bottom.
What's really odd for me is the first thing that stood out was the differences in the word Pause, it looks so much nicer on the CRT.
@copySave 13 inch CRT TVs are goat lol. I think people are so used to looking at Saturn dithers that a lot of people prefer that look now. It's part of the Saturn aesthetic. I do like that look but I prefer smoothed out look. It makes things look more solid and “expensive” heh heh. Bulk Slash and Virtual On are dither transparency show pieces.
@KennyL I like Burning Rangers for this, since it has both dithered 3D and actual transparent 2D in the same scenes. it can be a real mind-bend to look at sometimes.
Well after a weekend without the kids (God I love grandparents!) I finally got a chance to build my first modded machine. Took a while and a lot of making sure stuff didn‘t explode and testing but it’s finally up and running! Thanks to everyones input here, it has been really appreciated and given me some thoughts and I have “borrowed” a few peoples ideas.
I ended up ordering two machines - a white model with a broken disc drive for the intent of testing, and a second mint in box original JP machine to actually do the mods on when it was tested and working. The white one has had some smoke damage which isn't easy to see in the photos, but trust me I can smell it! But I never planned on keeping it for anything other than just seeing if the mods worked right. Sadly the mint one had been modded with a region free bios, which wasn't the issue. The problem was the bios was flashed with a V-Saturn image so it loaded up different and if I was going to do this, was going to do it right. So that's going back to the buyer and the hunt continues. I also ordered a few random accessories I wanted as well and there will be more to come.
Now the fun stuff.
First thing was the issue with power for here in the EU. I decided to take a chance on a UK company I found Sega Saturn CleanPower (USB-C Power Mod) who had built a USB C power converter which is very new, but I took a chance. Also I can use my Steamdeck power adapter and save space/cable management!
After quadruple checking I had it configured correctly (meaning no explosions) I installed it and she fitted and worked perfectly too, with a nice resin printed mount to put the socket in
Next up was the replacement for the drive. Interesting fact, if you boot a Saturn without a drive connected for power and the drive ribbon, the menu sounds load up at about a quarter of the speed! I didn't know this and was a bit worried, as I learned this one the hard way.
For ODE I decided to go with the Fenrir Duo - keeping it local where possible and that was far too easy to set up. The original ribbon cable was working so I didn't even have to change it
It was a little bit wobbly right now, but I have a last piece coming. I am a member of a French gaming forum where the owner has built the Saturn Tray to mount an SD card so went with that as well. (if anyone wants to order on their behalf I'm more than happy to, let me know) Using the rubber pieces from the drive to mount it, it supported the Fenir better.
At this point I had tested everything to make sure it worked, which it did so that helped. And then it was a case of putting it all together.
There's a LOT of lights coming from the power and tray, but I will see how well duct tape sorts that one out at some point.
I followed @kory recommending the Scart cable as I happen to have an old flat 32inch screen with a Scart socket just to test, before I commit to either an upscaler or CRT at home so was able to get a very streched but working image onto a TV. And there was only one game I had to test it with, the reason I fell in love with the Saturn…
After maybe 25 years I am now able to play games on original hardware, with original controllers and it is amazing!
I'd like to say a huge thank you to everyone here who advised/supported/chimed in/viewed this post and how nice it is that there's a group of people who not only love, but support people who love this too.
This is far from over, if only just the start. And I will keep collecting and if anyone is interested sharing!
And playing too =)
Bonus pic:
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Congrats! Just in time for a daily play of Christmas Nights all December!
@chazumaru Thank you - that'll be the plan once I get the replacement internal battery. I think the one in there may have been the actual original one !
Well after a lot of searching around, I finally found as close as I could hope to get for something that is 27 years old - a new Saturn!
I bought it from a collector who said he had barely used it and I didn't realise until I opened it how true that was.
From what I can tell the warning document hadn't ever been unfolded!
Of course the proof was in the ~~dessert~~
I am a tad pleased with it and then some. I thought I'd pick up the original one I had modded to compare the difference and I was quite shocked.
I won't lie, I am still in two minds to actually change the mods from the original over to this one, but I am confident in carefully removing the insides and doing the "Saturn Transplant" (For people _from_ Saturn).
And to try and keep everything as original as possible I bought a couple more accessories to add to it.
As I want to keep the exterior as close to original as possible I am thinking of getting an Action Replay for the RAM expansion, and transplanting the PCB into the office memory cart instead of getting both the 1mb and 4mb memory cards. Honest question to you all wise and wonderful people - have any of you opened up either a ram/memory/action reply cart and if so, what happened with it?
Thanks again for all your help here, really is appreciated =)
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@KennyL Wowwww amazing! I…… would like to ask you to please keep it stock…. Maybe modding the shell of the yellowed one instead? They're your consoles so you gotta do what you gotta do……
@KennyL Thank you!
I've actually modded the yellowed one, it was bought just for testing as it had a faulty drive. I am hoping to use it - I am considering collecting some of rarer editions of machines and not touching them, but some mods need to be done.
You raise a point about keeping it stock, made me ask myself the question: What's worse, moding a console or never actually using it for what it was made to do?
I used to be the first, but now I'm definitely the later.
@TomoftheFog I'd say your mint Saturn is pretty rare and will get even more so. Since you already have a modded one, why gut this mint one? You can still use the mint one without modding.
Never mind, you gotta do what you gotta do. I was just awestruck by your new Saturn lol
Can anyone explain why I can‘t play games like x-men vs street fighter using fenrir? I’m prompted in Japanese to use a 4mb card (I think), and even if I do, the game won't load.