NFT/Crypto Games

I hesitated about whether or not to even reply to this thread, just because I'm so viscerally turned off by NFT/Crypto in general, and then grossed out/pissed off by its recent intersection with games companies.

Really, games companies going hard on NFTs might be what it takes to get me to stop buying new games altogether. It's yet another example of a trendy/scammy/ultra-late-capitalist thing (like loot crates) that bigger games companies will just end up cramming into their games whether we want it or not.

I mean, it's a thing that is actively accelerating ecological collapse at a point where even small actions matter, but the driving force behind it seems to be 'sure the world is burning, but let's get our cut before it's completely burnt down.' I'm sure there is some benefit somewhere to someone who isn't a hyper capitalist grifter for the tech, but I think this accounts for the majority of the people who are seriously into it.

Here‘s another good take on this stuff that one of the zeboyd games folks shared on twitter. Essentially, as soon as the blockchain has to hit anything outside of itself (an app/front end/game asset) everything that’s supposedly good and secure about it degrades. Degraded Blockchains

I hate the idea of ‘play to earn’ it sucks so much. I used to play a lot of Magic The Gathering Online (previously known as Magic Online Digital Objects). Fortunately Magic Online has nothing to do with the blockchain or Crypto based NFTs (YET…) but the principal is very similar.

In Magic online you buy virtual booster packs and virtual sealed card product using the in-game currency of tickets (one ticket costs around 1.06 dollars). Magic online lets you trade tickets for cards, this resulted in a secondary market where you can buy single cards. Using bots, (aptly named) websites like 'cardhoarder' would game the trading system to amass huge amounts of booster packs and create an in game store-front where players can 'sell' cards for tokens. Most cards are worth pennies but rare/ extremely playable cards can range be worth 1-40 tickets.

Now, don't get me wrong, the idea of a 40 dollar digital card is ridiculous, surprisingly these cards are very cheap in comparison to their real world equivalents (the secondary economy of the real game sucks too but that's a whole other thing).

Why do people pay real money to buy virtual cards? Magic Online offers a vast tournament structure with multiple daily tournaments for various levels of competitive play. These tournaments can be pricy (between 10-30 dollars) but they offer booster packs as prizes. Booster packs can be sold for tickets, tickets can be exchanged on the secondary market for money. This is where the true despair begins.

Players talk online about 'going infinite'. Going infinite means that you can sustain the hobby and enter tournaments using your winnings from previous tournaments and eventually profit and cash out in real life.

In my weaker, more desperate moments, I've attempted the arduous task of 'going infinite'. It's a miserable, difficult practice that sucks all the joy, time and money it can. There was a dark period where I got pretty addicted to Magic Online for a few months. I wasted hundreds of dollars playing the game and ended up even more miserable than I was when I started playing. Eventually I broke away from Magic Online but I hate what the game did to me. Fortunately I'm in a much better place now and the programme has been long uninstalled!

Even without crypto currency, 'play to earn' is a miserable, manipulative practice. Its gambling in all but name. While Wizards don't actively promote the play to earn aspect of magic online, they aren't doing anything to stop it. As long as people are buying tickets, they're happy.

very well articulated, I‘ve felt this churn and burn in almost every free to play game I’ve gotten into, on a lesser level. the whole secondary economy thing looks great for “engagement” but certainly exists at the expense of your customers' life force.

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@“pizzascrub”#p47819 NFTs whole pitch is antithetical to what i like about art.

> i want the things i make to be shared. most of the art or entertainment that has spoken to me in my life has been art that is replicated. film, books, music, games, videos,

From an artistic perspective this becomes quite an interesting thing to question, and I think what you've said made something settle in place for me too.

Uh, incoming what turned out to be a lengthy meditation on art, and novelty, and other shit.

To be clear upfront, I also believe that anything that can be easily replicated, should be, and something being unique doesn't give it intrinsic value. I mean, I'm not one for the concept of ownership in any sense, much like my comrade Don Rumata over here.

I will say, though, there is something kinda special feeling about something being totally unique, even fleeting. The feeling of, say, a piece of performance art that depends on being done at a particular individual moment, or seeing a piece you've read about in a history book in person. I once was at the National Gallery of Canada, and upon turning a corner, not expecting to see it, saw Duchamp's _Fountain,_ and inaudibly gasped (I was alone but I know if I hadn't been I would have audibly gasped, you know?). However upon closer inspection, I was more than a little let down by finding out it was a replica. I mean, I don't know what I was thinking, thinking it would be on permanent display in Ottawa anyway, but you know (Editor's note: it had also currently slipped my mind that the original has been lost and that that must have been one of the replicas commissioned and approved by Duchamp, let me circle back around to this though, and let's pretend the original is in the Louvre or something). Nevertheless, there was some kind of feeling brought upon thinking I was in the presence of the very same exact object I had read about, knowing it has been the exact specific physical object that was imbued with that artistic intent.

I think this is also part of the power of art, partly because it's about personalizing that communicative exchange. In my opinion I did not see _Fountain_ but I did see perhaps a more tangible explanation of its message than seeing a picture of it or reading its wikipedia page. I mean, funnily enough, maybe this was still in its own way a pretty authentic experience to have with regards to _Fountain,_ instead of seeing the actual toilet that was masquerading as a piece of art, I was seeing a hunk of plaster masquerading as a toilet masquerading as a piece of art. _Ce n'était pas_ Fountain, _vrai?_ But it conveys its message perhaps better than most other replica or reproduction of a work of art because it really did prove if you put a toilet behind a pane of glass and put up a plaque it becomes art, so much so that even plaster in the shape of it a hundred or so years later will be considered art too. Wait, I got sidetracked from my initial point. Yes, what's missing there, though, is that feeling of personal exchange, even if it is ultimately indirect by both time and through a long chain of historical circumstances I am not privy to. I feel like I was deriving some sort of meaningful experience from seeing that hunk of plaster, but I don't feel like I was being shown or told something connected to Marcel Duchamp himself. And, lest I momentarily forget the whole point of that gesture was to de-deify the artist, it's not that placing myself in that chain of exchanges is all that important, it's not an interaction between myself and him, rather that it's just an interaction that hasn't been interrupted by artifice or abstraction, just, well, time and historical circumstance. Hypothetically, if the original piece had not been lost and it was for whatever reason in Ottawa in 2012 or whenever it was, I can still imagine the original fool coming upon it, lugging it somewhere, painting a fake signature on it, surely laughing his damn fool head off submitting it knowing that they essentially had an intractable pay-to-display policy, hopefully continuing to laugh when figuring out the Society of Independent Artists technically accepted it into the gallery but purposefully did not exhibit it in the showing area, and then a long chain of human hands moving it from place to place, until I come to see it. Even, I think, if the reproductions were under the supervision of Duchamp, there is something lost if it is not that exact hunk of plaster which was accepted on technicality only into the gallery as a piece of art but kept from being exhibited in New York in 1917. I mean, arguably, perhaps the Society of Independent Artists understood this maybe better than anyone, passive aggressively not displaying it in the showing area is an admission that exact hunk of plaster now had importance. Perhaps if they were more hip they would have realized in trying to avoid being played they played themselves even harder.

That connection between human beings is, I think, certainly in cases less idiosyncratic than _Fountain_ where a reproduction makes more sense, is perhaps the juice that makes even something that has been replicated or reproduced or reiterated into something that still maintains that art's real meaning is derived from having a personal connection. Being communicated to from the hearts and minds of the creators or creator, and interpreters or archivists or performance standards can be in between that so long as it isn't just about trying to repackage, and thus commodify, that connection. I mean, this is why we like and attach value to having even mass produced things with a signature from the original creator, it's not a scribble of someone's name, it's evidence that our connection to them through their work was physical (their hands) as well as conceptual. But I also think that individual people can also instill a personal connection to even a mass produced piece of art through their own interaction with it. A mass produced paperback of your favourite book is only a mass produced pile of paper, glue, cardboard, and ink, until the feeling of the wrinkles in the spine feel familiar, or the dogear on one page reminds you of where you were at when you stopped reading on that page and made that dogear, or it having been a gift from someone means you think of that person when you read it, etc. These are also authentic and unique experiences with a mass produced piece of art, or rather, authentic experiences with art that has been placed within a mass produced vessel. And none of that even has to be individually personal either... I haven't seen the show in any other form, but I feel that when the high school I graduated from put on _Hairspray_ a year or two after I graduated, and my old high school band director asked me to come and play in the pit band, that was surely one of the best versions of that show put on, like, on an all time basis, at least for me, and every night was a little different too, of course. The little microdifferences and small blunders that aren't reproducible are part of that human connection too after all.

And so I come to NFTs. I think maybe the real irony about NFTs as I have seen them executed is that they're a laughably feeble attempt at simply mass producing that feeling of authentic uniqueness, and while it's sad ultimately that it's just a grift trying to create speculative value, it's also just pathetic how transparent the shared delusion really is. There was of course initially so much grand talk about how this would be about becoming a tentpole for the creation of unique art and more direct support for said creators, and I guess there's even irony in that because just ignoring the ecological drawbacks of NFTs to make a point on this specifically, there's probably plenty of artists who would perhaps be interested in the idea of being micro-patrons to some sort of investment scheme wherein attaching some digital certificate of authenticity to market fluctuations in order to become entitled to a cut of the exchange of said digital certificate of authenticity would make sense (even if, yes, to reiterate, in practice it would still be unethical given the ecological impact). However, of course, the sort of people getting in on this racket showed their hand with a shocking quickness by betraying even the one fleeting and totally compromised hypothetical benefit of this by losing sight of the idea of attaching this to the sincere creation of art when their actual physical eyes morphed into big cartoon dollar signs, and now the idea of an NFT is most prominently associated with algorithmically generated picrew avatars, with the most telling-on-yourself names possible of Bored Ape and Lazy Lion, specifically in order to ensure that there would be less fatcats with which to divvy up the spoils with. They couldn't even stick to the flimsy pretext of the support of the expansion of what sort of creative endeavors were possible to derive a revenue stream from for more than a few months which is hilariously pathetic.

Apologies to you if you like this game but this also makes me think of what I'll call the _No Man's Sky_ Paradox. It doesn't matter for how many results you choose to run an algorithm, a number of permutations being effectively indistinguishable from being infinite, but still within a set number of parameters that are still possible to comprehend, will result in something that our human brains, having evolved over millennia to recognize patterns, recognizes the everliving shit out of those patterns. We don't yet and almost certainly won't have in our lifetime (if it is indeed somehow even possible) computing power possible to actually generate something as complex as a realistic expression of lifeforms and biomes on other planets could look like, so the actually uniqueness of each permutation is completely overshadowed by those pattern recognition skills. It's like trying to pretend that by adding numerals to the right of its decimal place, you are making that number larger in a meaningful way, and while, yes, technically 3.141592 is a numerical value that is mathmetically more than 3.14159, even if that distinction is subtle and beautiful in some application somewhere our particular psychological structure will never appreciate that distinction more than Johnny giving Sarah 4 apples instead of Johnny giving Sarah 3 apples. Another way to put it is that it's like trying to make a point that a linear gradient between 255 Red 0 Green and 0 Blue, and 0 Red 0 Green and 255 Blue, is actually hundreds of different mixtures of red and blue. That's obviously completely correct on a light spectrum analysis level, these wonderful brains of ours obviously don't necessarily comprehend the distinction between all of those shades individually. As far as the human psyche is concerned, it's really only 4 paramaters: Red (or Absolute Value 1), Blue (or Absolute Value -1), Purple (Absolute Value 0), and Gradient, the precise details created by a transitory process between said absolute values. Now, you'll never hear me say something so damn foolish as that there somehow isn't a difference between Carmine, Burgundy, and Maroon, I mean, assuming you have the monitor settings and precise enough color vision to determine said differences anyway, but what I mean to express is simply that, psychologically speaking, we appreciate the effect of minute difference more than individual minute differences.

The direction that NFTs went in, of course, is based on the absolutely absurd premise that we do in fact appreciate individual minute differences, so much so in fact that there is actual material value to be generated from a spritz of electricity somewhere telling someone that they've secured vast tracts of prime real estate between what might as well be the eyedropper tool results for Shocking Pink and Purple Pizzazz. While, again, there is a difference between Shocking Pink and Purple Pizzazz, it's only in application, or human curation, or in artistic intent attaching some significance to their use, it's not the nudges in precise RGB or hex values between hues of solid Shocking Pink and Purple Pizzazz that have artistic or creative value. Attaching value to those microscopic differences really is about as ridiculous as the real life NFT examples of there somehow being able to determine a value in the difference between an ugly drawing of a cartoon lion wearing a coconut halves bra and spongebob squarepants skin textured fur and anime eyes and...

uh...

Oh my god I thought I was being facetious here but in a fit of morbid curiousity I was poking around on some NFT marketplace, I found what I would more or less say is basically just that:

[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/GfIga3L.png]

You too can experience the thrill of the abstraction of ownership of an asset in a game (the game is owned by someone else of course), and know that you OWN the abstraction of digital ownership of the pale mauve crystal horse intangible trading card representation of a game asset and not the pale maroon crystal horse intangible trading card representation of a game asset. WOOF.

In a way I too right now am just trying to rephrase in my own words and thoughts what everyone in this thread and in pieces I've read in order to feel I've created an authentic point here, but in the NFT marketplace so quickly tripping over itself to mass produce novelty, it was totally showing its hand on how little anyone involved in any of it cared to follow even that (it always bears repeating that I think this was compromised out the gate by the ecological impact and my God can we just create social conditions where people can create art without justifying their continued existence by being able to commercially distribute it) initial premise of setting up micro-patronages and creating intangible value out of the novelty of artistic creation.

Like, I know ultimately it always was just grifters jerking each other off to attract marks but it is still somehow a little bit surprising to me how rapidly it became more honest about what the fart of a facade of value was being derived from. Like, it's so painfully obvious that's what was attempted at with those Bored Lion and Lazy Ape stuff or whatever. It's a cartoon, those are handcrafted, and personable, right? People like picrew right? It's not that NFTs derive value from some sort of personal connection to something novel and unique if nothing about the novelty of the novelties are novel except in the most cold and lifeless sense, the value is at least metaphorically if not literally to be found in excluding everyone else from that relationship. If something like an original work of art from the hands of its creators makes its way along to galleries and into eyeballs and ears by way of a long chain of human hands, and maybe a recreation does too even while still I think being unable to totally escape the idea that it began along that chain from a place that was fundamentally artificial. However, since an NFT is already conceptually incentivized to get as few people involved as possible at their points of origin (to increase the stake for individual shareholders naturally) the obvious path of least resistance is going to be algorithmic mass production with as thin of a paint of coat of actual unique novelty as possible. It's a deliberate severing and minimizing of the human connection in the exchange of creative works, even worse than just saying only you get to say you have had a unique relationship to a unique-by-default thing, it's just a show to be able to take from others and bar access, to pretend that "exclusivity" isn't a very dirty word when you start to think about it.

So, maybe my ultimate point here is that an algorithm cannot hope to replicate the feeling of exchanging something of meaning or value with another human being, and so, NFTs to me are not just economically and ecologically evil, as well as creatively degrading. I'll use a spicy word here with lots of different implications--they're a particularly embarrassing symptom of a society-wide spiritual toxicity.

@“exodus”#p47870 One especially irritating thing about these free to play games is that, looking past their vampiric economy, they usually offer glimpses of something amazing that could have been.

For example, before I quit playing Fate Grand Order I found portions of the writing genuinely enjoyable and I enjoyed the gameplay in dragon quest tact before the grind became ridiculous. It's sad that the very force that powers these free to play games kneecaps their potential.

@"Gaagaagiins"#p47876 That was a beautiful piece of writing, I don't really have anything to add here but your post is a wonderful meditation on art and authenticity!

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@“Gaagaagiins”#p47876 surprising to me how rapidly it became more honest

yeah there was no alternative here because cultural norms are so well established about a) Art being something an artist creates to share with the public, and b) the concept of physical objects existing in reality lol

I'm hopeful that NFTs, even if they continue to be corporately-enforced on us, will not really gain a foothold in terms of acquiring any real "value" because no one apart from rubes and speculators will want to spend actual money that can buy other stuff on them. Or maybe more accurately: they may catch on as a type of currency, but no one is going to confuse them with art

But of course we circle back to the dilemma of how much climate damage the crypto sickos can cause in hashing all this out

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@“nolimitsquesting”#p47880 That was a beautiful piece of writing, I don’t really have anything to add here but your post is a wonderful meditation on art and authenticity!

Well, you know, if you really _really_ like it, I'll create a google doc with the permalink to it, and I'll sell you the link to the google doc along with a statement that you own the google doc that has the permalink to it

@“Gaagaagiins”#p47876

i absolutely agree that going to a museum and seeing an art piece can be a spiritual experience.

i am in no way hating on art that there is only one of.

i have been friends with dancers and performance artists and wow - what an incredible thing

but i was not thinking of NFTs as akin to going to a museum or my friends inviting me to a show they are putting on
instead they are more like a corpo's private art collection. inaccessible to the people who would appreciate it. gated off from the world because the investment is king.

@“pizzascrub”#p47891 Oh yes, absolutely. I wasn't meaning to contradict you, what you said just made me think of all sorts of things.

I have a bad habit of feeling inspired to respond to someone based on something they said, and getting so caught up in the train of thought that I forget to clarify that I totally agree.

Interesting discussion - NFT/crypto games are in a weird place right now, just like the whole industry as a whole. Will give a disclosure here, I work at a blockchain startup, have been interested in the tech for some time, but it is hard to enjoy a majority of what is getting visibility these days. The environmental concerns for Bitcoin are more than valid, but many other blockchains exist, artistic and “good” game projects will likely take place using blockchains that allow for transactions to use roughly the same amount of energy as one of these thread posts or a Tweet do, still environmentally detrimental, sure, but many are willing to allow for that given the ability to connect.

The fetishisation of ownership as the only selling point of the popular understanding of NFTs (the absurd artistic, or artistic-adjacent) projects is a bit strange and sadly trying to be ported into the major blockchains and IPs and, subsequently, ported into the mainstream visibility of it.

I have yet to see a crypto game project I see "the point" of, but the idealized version of the end goal is something that could be rather interesting - if someone could create a virtual world, like Roblox or Minecraft, that allows for people to create art, artefacts, accessories, what have you, create a player economy like most games have these days, but then have the benefits of that economy be applicable, or interoperable, to things outside of that game world (paying for subscription services, buying some delivery food, etc.). What some are hoping to achieve is the ability to have an enjoyable, tangible, and fruitful parallel economy virtually (or *shudder* in the _Metaverse_). While making things focused on money is silly in my opinion, with a lot of my friends losing their jobs during the early stages of lockdowns, the idea that perhaps one could still find new ways to survive in 2021 and beyond off of creating ideas and objects in a game world that many enjoy doesn't sound too bad, in my opinion.

Will we get there? Maybe, there are, no doubt, countless gifted game designers, developers, artists, that could truly make something worthwhile. Will we have to sit through about 100,000 (or more) horribly selfish and low-quality cash grabs before we catch glimpses of something real? Sadly, I think so. The industry, as idealistic as many are within it, struggles to listen to criticism, internally or externally, and because there is so much money flowing around, the industry is essentially just acting like one big drunken party every day, hard to get people to want to stop and ask why they are doing as such when the party is still going.

I've heard that the Axie Infinity game is somewhat popular in Brazil, but even Axie Infinity (which is one of the most polished attempts on the market right now) has hardly swayed my opinion that we are still some time off from a decent "crypto game" coming to fruition. And by then, I am not sure if we will even want it. I enjoy hearing more of the critical views of the tech though, applied to gaming and beyond, again we don't hear much of it within the industry.

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@“siebold_magnolia”#p47973 economy

I find myself recoiling at the existence of even a nicer type of "economy" or "market" in the art/media domain

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@“siebold_magnolia”#p47973 my friends losing their jobs

it's terrible that this happened to your friends, but the imposition of another bubble scam economy isn't a satisfying answer.

I think it's the fact of more capitalism that people find noxious, not so much the fact that crypto games have been shitty games and elon musk is annoying

Ah word, that is fair, our attempts at Capitalism in 2021 certainly leave a lot to be desired, to say the least. I think a lot of people just accept that economies will end up being created one way or another - most of the time it feels the same to me as the shady cs;go skin exchanges, only this time it is tied to a technology that has governments scared and is offering tangible opportunities for creators and artists to make a living off their work with a global audience. All of that, sadly, is nestled comfortably beneath the avarice and ego that fuels most stories that hit the media headlines.

Blockchain has a lot of uses beyond economic, however, it being added to games seems limited to only the economic aspects, as game developers aren't really involved from what I have seen. Most projects are set up by more business-minded spearhead figures who then get some development teams behind them. New game mechanics will probably be developed in the future, and maybe some of those will include blockchain solutions. I only mention the ability to make money off of essentially building things in Minecraft because, in my limited mind for game design, that was the use case that offered the most (or at least some) use to societies at large.

Games are probably not the best medium for blockchain technology to prosper. Sadly, that will not stop the hundreds of money-lusting marketing grads who know the right words to say. If games are going to be made on-chain either way, I at least am willing to try to think of what would be the best use case. I do think we would both agree that a majority of the high level voices looking to leverage this technology at industry-scale do not have our best interests in mind, and better mindsets are sadly in low demand, both here and other aspects of society.

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@“yeso”#p47982 elon musk is annoying

As Mr. Rogers put it "There might be a real cool guy who likes Elon Musk, but I haven't met him. And I never will"

I have many varied thoughts about the crypto space generally, and also how it relates to games. I got linked to this thread and found it pretty thoughtful so I'll try to distill my current read on things. First, a fairy tale:

There may come a time when Anonymous sets up a DAO on a privacy coin to make Nintendo fangames. They attract attention and speculative investment through a series of NFT releases that demonstrate their capability. Nintendo can't shut them down because the privacy mechanisms are too good - they can try to force it out of the public eye, but they can't stop the developers being funded and releasing new things. So, they keep doing it, and fans are happy, but Nintendo is not. The end.

That can't happen just yet because the engineering and marketplace to do that isn't actually there, but the necessary pieces are. There are privacy coins, a "dark web", and decentralized exchanges that suggest the possibility. And once it's out there...it's the Internet, we know what happens. But how did we even get to the point where it's conceivable?

  • 1. My deepest underlying premise has always been that none of this stuff will work out like we expect, which also doesn‘t mean that it will all fail. This belief has let me discount most of the marketing around crypto while also speculating in it and staying relatively close to the activity. I’ve also learned that it has the effect of deeply weirding out people who want to argue with a crypto bro. I first got involved in crypto in 2013 by taking a position in the “green crypto” available at that time, so I've been a party to all the market cycles since then, and mostly in proof-of-stake or DAG coins. More recently, I got interested in where NFTs are going this past year through the CleanNFTs Discord, which has hosted lots of good conversations around NFT art and assembled the available research. If you want to deep dive on the environmental angle, they have resources. I have never traded in the NFT space despite following it, though.
  • 2. For my premise of "an unexpected place" to be correct the following also has to be incorrect: That things will revert back to the "good old days" of 2008 or so, that we will land in an ancap dystopia, that we will proceed towards a authoritarian surveillance state dystopia. The unexpected place is subversive to our expectations and therefore is going to sound radical and probably utopian.
  • 3. There are two related reasons why we can go to an unexpected place. The first is that the crypto technologies automate consent and consensus, not control and enforcement. That's a very deep distinction, and it's why both the ancap concept of this being about "taking back money," and the metaverse pitch of a deeply connected strong-identity marketplace rings hollow, because it's contradictory. Without an enforcement body breathing down your neck, money feels as flimsy as it really is. Declaring yourself the operator of the metaverse, as Mark Zuckerberg seems to have done, amounts to violating consent. And "blockchain gaming" tries to impose enforcement on play spaces, which are almost all about norms and consent. So all these angles are already dead to me. They are things you can speculate on but as "a thing people want to use", they are dead ends.
  • 4. The second, and more far-fetched reason - the one that I believe in because it addresses why the market has kept going for this long and reached such a large size despite its incoherence - is that scalable, distributed consensus tech disrupts the entire power structure, top to bottom, and the bet on Bitcoin is the bet on consensus tech as a category being the actual "master of the universe" - replacing finance with governance; not a particular form of governance like "voting" or "shareholding", but a record of consent by the governed. It's simply been positioned in a form that makes it a literal speculative bet, not a hypothetical, and that's propelled it forward. At the largest scales of this process, when we're talking about gigantic Bitcoin farms, regulatory bodies, hedge funds, heads of state announcing new legal tender, etc., it is not a "little guy vs big guy" narrative, but "two big guys scrambling for the loaded gun". One elite trying to get ahead of the other by alternately encouraging or thwarting crypto. Perceiving events around crypto in terms of an ongoing "crypto war" between all elements of the system, where self-interest and group interest conflict, has a lot more explanatory power for me than a simple ideological narrative.
  • 5. It's the iterative process of someone finding a little advantage in their corner by "going crypto", and subsequently pushing the system in the direction of more consent, that is giving us the sense of upheaval, because the deeper you go towards a consensual system, the less the idea of "getting ahead", "exiting", or "exerting power" will make sense. It's like, oh, you got the high score, that's nice. But if you want me to serve you dinner you have to go by my rules. You can try to change the laws to enforce power over the space, but that just displaces the consensus into whatever you don't control. This has already happened within the crypto markets: aiming to "capture" a token against the consent of other holders means it just forks itself and walks away. The only way to stop this process is to accelerate the surveillance state until it omits any possibility of crypto networks, and I believe it's already too late for that in most of the world. Too many people in high places have dipped their fingers in the pot, and now they're stuck advocating to protect their own interests.
  • Therefore, my conclusion is the unexpected one: that the global power structure is dissolving at an accelerating pace, and we don't even have the words to start describing what is taking form instead - it's just _occurring_. And games and art are along for the ride on this transition, and can maybe light the way in parts.

    And that's where I think things will go. It keeps me optimistic, at least!

    These ideas I have lifted in some part from Heather Marsh's philosophy, especially [_The Creation of Me, Them and Us_](https://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2020/01/09/new-book-the-creation-of-me-them-and-us/). Marsh is dismissive of crypto and wants to jump right from the now to the utopian; my idea of how the transition takes place is original.

    do crypto advocates just not get that their whole thing is a huge weird pain in the ass to most human beings? I don‘t like having to worry about another financial thing I don’t understand and am probably fucking up. This shit is just not accessible to almost all of the population but we have to deal with more biosphere shredding and “unknowns” and imposed accelerationism.

    Why is it assumed that crypto is decentralized or egalitarian? Sure it's not wall street, but it's still an undemocratic cadre of money obsessed assholes

    @“yeso”#p48031 I think a lot of cryptoheads struggle to understand why not everyone would want their interpretation of crypto applications. Blockchain is still just a technology, not any specific use case. Cryptocurrency and PFP regenerative art NFTs are the two commonly attempted and publicized uses, they are easily the most profitable right now. I agree that the accessibility and “point” of crypto/web3 solutions is a major hurdle right now, and far too few voices are doing anything to help remedy that (most crypto stories and “ambassadors” offer much less than expected to educate and inspire hope).

    That said, I believe the answer to your question is that in the minds of many, blockchain solutions offer the _opportunity_ for healthy decentralization and, maybe, one day, egalitarianism. That depends very heavily on how it is utilised and it is sad to observe that the cash-grabs seem more tempting than most other possible uses of the technology right now. I have hope that will change one day, though

    @“siebold_magnolia”#p48051 to clarify when I say crypto I specifically mean cryptocurrency rather than the raw tech

    I suppose the dilemma boils down to:

    1) the fact that rich people already own most cryptocurrency wealth and are not going to share it, just as they do not share traditional forms of wealth and capital. So there goes egalitarianism and democracy already. I do buy the argument that in a wealth vacuum, something like cryptocurrency would be better than the weird gold and debt based system we have. But again, that's a task for a future communist state, and crypto has already (it seems) been captured by the usual creeps

    2) the delusion that capitalism + "anarchism" = anything but more right wing free market misery. I don't see any real distinction between bitcoin-based magical thinking and traditional neoliberal "free hand of the market" thinking

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    @“triplefox”#p48025 It keeps me optimistic

    are you equally optimistic about the materially and socially corrosive effects of traditional finance capital? What makes an oligarchy of the bitcoin-rich different from the asset-backed capital-rich? Is it just an accelerationist argument with the notion that a better framework for money exists at the other end of climate collapse?

    3) is anyone convinced that adding (at least) one entire industrialized nation's worth of carbon output worth seeing if this all works out? Not trying to pick on anyone here in particular, but we're all on the same page that millions of people, mostly in the global south (don't have nvidia gpus to mine bitcoin) are more than likely going to die in the coming decades due to climate strife, correct? Did I miss some wonderful optimistic news about the course of climate change?

    look: I‘m bad at computers so anyone please feel free to tell me I’m dumb and don't get it!

    Ah I don‘t think you are too bad at computers mate, crypto ideas are still in their infancy, despite what some avid believers might try to claim. One division of cryptocurrency is cryptocurrency as a “currency of the internet” - that is a new way to share financial wealth with fewer middlemen. I will give an example here: let’s say you find a person online who creates a really cool bot on Discord, they work at it whenever they get some time and you really enjoy the functionality that it brings you. Upon finding out they are located in, say, Chile, instead of having to go through PayPal, Wire Transfer, or a bank, dealing with commission fees, conversion fees, etc. one could simply send them some Doge or Banano (or any other cryptocurrency). Cryptocurrency as a store of wealth, which is what the Bitcoin maximalists push for is something else, and I agree I think it is mostly a waste of time as it is just the not-quite elites hoping to become the elites by getting into a new system early.

    I am personally not a fan of Bitcoin, it is wonderful that the white paper for Bitcoin developed the foundations for the new technology, but it hardly should be the future in any large capacity in my opinion. To relate to your third point, yes Bitcoin and other Proof-of-Work blockchains can be horribly detrimental for the environment. At this point, I am not certain that will be able to be slowed down, as we don't seem to have many ways to incentivize caring for the environment sadly. That is not the only way that blockchains can work, perhaps you have heard of Proof-of-Stake (PoS) which is employed by a lot of lesser-known blockchains and has been on the roadmap for the Ethereum blockchain (the largest blockchain used by developers, most of the notorious NFTs take place on this blockchain network) for a while, but has yet to come to fruition. More academically speaking there are even hypothesized ideas like Proof-of-Time-and-Space which would take even less energy than PoS, but that is all theoretical at this time. I mentioned above that there are blockchains that allow for transactions to take up the same amount of energy as sending a Tweet or two, this was in reference to the PoS blockchains (which are far from mainstream adaptation).

    Really, the fact that so much in the crypto tech space focuses on this new psychedelic experiment of planned economics is disheartening, there are myriad other applications of the tech that would be very beneficial to growth (in my opinion) but they will be pushed further and further back because of how much money there is to be made in the financial sectors. Coupled with this is that the financially-lustful individuals are doing nothing but ruining the public's opinion of the new tech to be incorporated in more healthy ways down the line.

    Like yeso, I know very little about all this except for a few articles that only half made sense to me. I‘m curious about the non-economic uses of blockchain. I don’t understand the technology well enough to see what exactly you‘re referring to when you mention that. I don’t need a technical explanation, but what are some aspects of my real life that could potentially be positively changed by utilising blockchain technology? Not trying to be facetious; I'm genuinely curious.