@“exodus”#p48351 I admit my trips to the homeland have fallen under the 10% of the time I‘m not a vegetarian but I’ll try to check out that vegan place in krakow next visit
The giveaway with impossible meat to me is the texture: it turns into like a bean paste consistency when chewing it. At least when I've had it anyway
@"穴"#p48327 this reminds me I need to track down some huitlacoche out here, speaking of mushrooms...
Like several folks here, I was vegetarian for a while in the past, and am still sympathetic to the cause (if that‘s an okay phrase to use to describe it?). I was a poor university student at the time (who enjoyed alcohol and marijuana), so I didn’t have enough money or presence of mind or education on the topic to do vegetarianism in a healthy way.
Nowadays, I wish I could commit fully to being vegetarian, but it really is inconvenient and expensive to try and do that in Japan (which is where I live). So, whenever an appetizing vegetarian option presents itself, I will go for it. But all too often, that option doesn't exist unless I prepare it myself, and I just don't always have the resources to do that.
One specific example: I work at a company where meals are provided for free. That's pretty hard to say no to! Unfortunately, the vegetarian option is _exactly the same every day_ and it is a big old lettuce salad with some beans, mini tomatoes, a potato and a ball of rice. Other options rotate on a daily basis, and include delicious stuff like ramen, elaborate lunch boxes, and different kinds of curry, but these all contain _multiple_ kinds of meat or meat-related products!
You do also have the option to sign up for an Indian cuisine meal plan, but the language in the sign-up process makes it clear that the option is intended for people with religious or dietary reasons, and are unable to eat anything else. As a non-Indian and non-religious person, it feels a bit disingenuous to sign up.
Once, when I went to Scotland, I found a restaurant in Edinburgh that offered vegetarian haggis! That struck me as a wacky and cheeky concept, so I had to try it. It was one of the most delicious meals I've ever had, and I'm sure it had very little relation to proper haggis, which was probably "the joke" — I can't claim to understand what they were aiming for, but the end result was good.
Anyway, to everyone who is a successful vegetarian, I really respect what you're doing, and hope to follow in your footsteps someday. My body just feels happier and healthier when it's not dealing with meat.
Currently, my policy is, if I'd feel okay catching the animal in the wild and preparing it myself, I feel pretty okay eating it. So that means fish is usually an option, and chicken is an option when I'm feeling adventurous.
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@“whatsarobot”#p48372 Once, when I went to Scotland, I found a restaurant in Edinburgh that offered vegetarian haggis! That struck me as a wacky and cheeky concept, so I had to try it. It was one of the most delicious meals I’ve ever had, and I’m sure it had very little relation to proper haggis, which was probably “the joke” — I can’t claim to understand what they were aiming for, but the end result was good.
I'm vegetarian/pescatarian and generally can't be arsed to discuss it but I'd like to note that vegetarian haggis, like most vegetarian meat substitutes, isn't a joke. Scotland has some *excellent* meat substitutes that are very culturally specific: one of the butchers, Simon Howe, does great square-slice sausage, black pudding and haggis, I believe all vegan actually (though don't quote me on it.) Adding on the bacon from "This Isn't Bacon" and I can do a full Scottish Breakfast without meat and for me, that's fantastic.
Anyway, just to make the point that doing stuff like that isn't like... "lol! so wacky!" it's a real effort that is successful to provide people with vegetarian substitutes for things they love. Haggis when made from offal is a spicy, grainy dish, and it's easy to recreate something similar at home with spices and grains.
Anyway I know no offense was intended but it's symbolic of the complexity and personal cultural nature of food, and probably why I try and avoid these conversations!
I‘d like to try vegetarian haggis! But I guess I’d like to try vegetarian everything.
And I hear you @"whatsarobot"#p48372 about japan. The longer I'm there the less healthy I get. I have to bring vitamins with me because they're REALLY HARD TO FIND in japan and I sure can't get them from the vegetarian food that's available, because it's generally not designed for people to eat every day, it's like a "diet day" kind of thing still over there. Although!!! I've started to see fake "tofu meat" sold in grocery stores, and some places sell TVP and - believe it or not - beans other than edamame! Though last time I was there I had to order beans on amazon.
Yeah, I think food is the main reason I'd not live in Japan. I don't want to have to fight to eat, every single meal. Explaining what a vegetarian is has gotten a lot easier (and some people actually know now) but it's still kinda tiresome. Also every vegetarian restaurant that pops up that's actually good and has nutrition/protein in it doesn't last until my next visit to the country lol. Or if they do a great vegetarian thing as part of a larger meaty menu, the vegetarian option disappears. Yami Yami curry, which tim and I used to sing the praises of to the ends of the earth, stopped doing vegetarian curry like 8-9 years ago and will literally yell at you to get out if you ask for it. ("yell" in the japanese business sense of being incredibly snippy and patronizing with you)
@"yeso"#385 my favorite vegetarian burgers anywhere in the world were at Nova Krova in Krakow but it looks like it's permanently closed ;_;
https://www.happycow.net/reviews/nova-krova-krakow-45419
they didn't try to replicate meat and they didn't rely on mushrooms. And they filled stuff up to the brim with polish fermented stuff, and they had artisan beers and sodas. What a place!!!! aaaah
[edit] oh man I'm looking at all these reviews here, complaining of dryness. They clearly didn't know how to order! there's a whole bar of fermented goods to add stuff from, which was the whole point!! dumbos. just ask questions, they spoke english there! pffffffffffff
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@“exodus”#p48433 Yami Yami curry, which tim and I used to sing the praises of to the ends of the earth, stopped doing vegetarian curry like 8-9 years ago and will literally yell at you to get out if you ask for it. (“yell” in the japanese business sense of being incredibly snippy and patronizing with you)
Have you ever been to T's Tantan in Tokyo Station? They're our go to easy food when we're there, and their curry is outstanding. And compared to the usually idiotically expensive (if very good) vegan places there, they're pretty reasonably priced.
Japan is kindof in a weird spot food-wise since it's gotten way better and easier to eat since I started visiting around 2009 but there are still weird hiccups where it's unreasonably hard. Also I think I'm probably consuming more dashi than I think I am since my Japanese comprehension is pretty bad.
That's cool to hear about Krakow! I've always wanted to visit Poland (and I love Polish food in general).
Ah, on the subject of fermented food and great beer, we made a special trip to Salzburg when we were in Austria to visit Augustiner Bräu, where you can get fantastic and very fresh beer directly from the cask and eat a ton of incredible fermented foods (much of it vegan) from the various stalls that are set up inside the building!
Had know idea before this that wine is not default vegan. Weird stuff going on there.
What a shame it's so hard to find beans in Japan. I feel like beans are getting a lot of hate from things like whole 30 and paleo type diets where I'm pretty sure they outlawed beans cause they thought it would give people gas. Beans rule.
On the topic of burgers, I've had a walnut burger that was pretty dang good. That's a veggie style I don't see everywhere.
@“Karasu”#p48437 Yeah, T's Tantan is good! and Machine Ramen in Kyoto is even better, they have a “beaning ramen” (which I love to say) which has actual protein content in it. it rules
I've been to austria and germany and my absolute favorite thing to do is school germans and austrians on american beer when they hear my accent and start to make budweiser jokes. Like any given bar on the west or east coast will have a dozen different beers from breweries within 10 miles of there, or a brewery with dozens of options, where Austrians will have a bar with TWO beers and one pretzel and that's it. Plus it's hilarious to tell them budweiser is owned by Belgians.
Oh man I really got excited to contribute to this thread but then everyone made a bunch of the points I was going to say but did it better. That's like every Insert Credit forum thread I guess.
I think "vegan" is a great label for food, so it is disappointing that we use it primarily a label for individuals. It becomes an expression of tribalism. I concur with a lot of others here on how much _I_ personally don't want to try to argue anyone out of what they eat or argue them into what I eat (especially not as I am eating; the pressures to conform when eating with strangers or even your family of origin are just stressful). Far from the stereotype of the evangelist vegan, I know a lot of plant-eaters/meat-avoiders would prefer to be left alone.
Veganism _is_ a movement with an ethical imperative though, and we _do_ need people who are passionate about it to argue and challenge the status quo food practices. Because the status quo of the food system is...well it's a goddamn nightmare to be honest, from the world-destroying pollution and land destruction to the animal torture to the human labor rights violations. Humanity has to do something about this.
Improving access to (and quality of) vegan food is one of the things that can be done, and since everyone eats and makes decisions about what they eat every day, any of us can help with our choices and our food-buying dollars. But 'easy vegan cuisine' is still "new technology" in a sense, which is why (like battery-electric vehicles for example) it is not as cheap or accessible as the default (fried meat, or oil-powered transport). Economies of scale haven't brought the price down yet. That's okay! It just means that those with the means to eat more vegan food are the ones with more responsibility to be doing it now.
If there's one theme that should run through everything I am saying here it is that "the perfect is the enemy of the good".
I have done some travelling as a vegan, and lots of travelling as a vegetarian, especially in Europe. It's really cool how many countries with a lot of meat eating tradition have a burgeoning vegan movement, at least in their larger cities. Krakow has a bunch of great vegan stuff, veganism is huge in Germany too. Also I went to a really nice plant-based restaurant in Kiev.
And yeah, in terms of fake meat, I don't like it. Here in the UK the vegan "McPlant" just landed and a lot of people are talking about it. I walked past a McDonald's and thought about checking it out, and tried to remember what a McDonald's burger tastes like... I genuinely felt physically sick at the thought, so I kept on walking! I find the smell of meat to be repulsive at this point, and even struggle to be around people who are eating meat without getting very uncomfortable. Still, I am very happy for these options to exist, including lab-grown meats - as many people do still want to eat meat or an approximation of it, and this is a fantastic alternative for them.
A few points I would like to address. Firstly as there has been a lot of vegetarian discussion in this thread, I would like to assert that in my opinion, from an ethical standpoint, eating an egg or drinking milk is _exactly the same_ as eating meat. Although abstractly it doesn't seem to be the case, animals are routinely killed and tortured to produce these products.
Secondly, I see a lot of people saying they avoid factory farming in particular, or they prefer ethically sourced animal produce. These things _do not exist_ in any meaningful quantities. These labels are created to assuage consumer guilt, and they are very effective at that. But animal rights groups make a point of disseminating footage collected from so-called "ethical" farms and they are anything but. You simply cannot meet consumer demand and treat animals ethically (I further contend that it is not ethical to kill an animal for food if you don't need to eat it).
Finally, the notion that veganism is a personal life choice and vegans should just be quiet and let everyone get on with their lives is an extremely insidious one that seems to be commonly held and accepted in society at large. I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Veganism is a movement fighting against a social injustice of an inconceivable magnititude. If nobody ever talked about being vegan, the movement simply wouldn't grow. This attitude is the same as saying "Stop talking about developer crunch, I just want to play my games". Not calling out anyone particular here for this stuff, more just the general anti-vegan sentiment in society!
what course do imagine a transition to veganism taking? Harm reduction (ie less consumption and better (if marginally so) production methods)) until biosphere let's say uh… “changes” compel the big shift? I mean, material reality is going to be what does it rather than moral arguments right?
@“a pagan sketch of Jesus”#p48575 Great question! I don‘t have all the answers of course, but envisage a gradual cultural shift, with changes in consumer demands shaping the landscape of available products and services - essentially what we’re already seeing, hopefully with a level of exponential growth. As more people transition to veganism, it will become easier and more appealing to the masses until eventually animal agriculture is conducted on a very small scale as a sort of niche interest for a small subset of people with plant-based diets being the norm. I feel like the trajectory is somewhat similar to smoking, where back in the 60s and 70s the industry was fighting hard against allegations of health implications, but eventually the truth won out and, although lots of people still smoke now, the numbers are dropping and there is a sort of growing social stigma around it.
One major factor right now is how governments are spending their agriculture subsidies, the cost of animal products we see on the shelves is a complete fiction - these industries would operate at a huge loss without the massive subsidies being provided to them from taxpayer's money. So I feel like a redistribution of these subsidies into plant-based agriculture would be a huge and important milestone. It's amazing to me how we have climate change and the environment as a massive political issue right now and governments are still funneling billions into subsidizing animal agriculture. The "veganism is expensive" argument would be totally flipped if this was not the case (although fruit and veg, beans, grains and other whole foods are not that expensive in most countries - I know there are exceptions of course).
And here's a quick list off the top of my head of major global problems that are being significantly worsened by animal agriculture:
@“Kez”#p48580 Thank you for this post! I learned a lot from it, and am encouraged to be more vigilant in pursuing and creating my own meat-free options.
Your smoking analogy resonates for me. That's exactly how I think about meat consumption. I'm just sort of along for the ride right now until society finally shifts and provides better and more ethical options.
Do you have recommendations for good walkin'-around snacks I can bring with me – apart from just mixed nuts – to supplement boring or non-existent "vegetarian" options in Japan worklife? I'm concerned about getting enough protein and nutrients. I already love to eat fruit and nuts and vegetables, but non-canned beans are surprisingly tough to find over here, and pretty expensive! I should mention that I do take multivitamins on a daily basis, and have for years.
@“whatsarobot”#p48619 That's great to hear! I totally understand that a plant based diet is an entirely different proposition in Japan and lots of other places than it is here in the UK. In terms of snack suggestions… a lot of the stuff that pops into my head requires some prep unfortunately, and I know a lot of people in Japan work long hours.
The lack of available beans is a real shame, beans are super good for you and a cornerstone of a healthy plant based diet. Soy beans are among the best, though, and things like tofu, tempeh and edamame all confer similar benefits and I'm sure a lot of that is readily available. Other things that come under the same umbrella and you _might_ be able to find are chickpeas, peas and lentils.
If you don't have access to a fridge at the office, and don't mind spending a bit of time at home prepping ingredients, you could possibly make a tofu jerky at home ([something like this](https://www.connoisseurusveg.com/spicy-sriracha-tofu-jerky/)), granola mix or granola bars, or a nice seasoned trail mix to stir through the salads. Personally if I knew there was likely to be a plain salad option I would be tempted to mix up a little pot of vinaigrette or some other salad dressing and mix it through along with some seeds, toasted soybeans and nuts or something like that.
If you do have a fridge at work, that broadens your options quite a lot. One thing I like to do often is just make larger portions for dinner and then have them for lunch the following day. Kewpie also do a [vegan mayonnaise](https://www.kewpie.co.jp/no_egg/) which would be good for sprucing up a boring salad I think.
I would also suggest doing targeted research about vegan food in Japan, I have done a quick google and come up with [this organization](https://www.instagram.com/vegeproject_japan/) promoting vegan products in Japan, and there's whatever [this](https://linktr.ee/vegeprojectjapan) is linked on their instagram. A lot of the English information is more related to tourism and is very focused around Tokyo, and I'm not sure how relevant that is to you! You might have more luck than me as 僕の日本語は上手じゃないです！
Related to what @“Kez”#448 said about governments‘ market distortions (and private industry’s advertising) and its effect on our diets and what we take for granted as a “normal” diet:
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This same joke would apply to dairy, which is why we have literal government warehouses full of cheese. And why the cheap protein powders are made out of "whey" instead of pea. And surely we wouldn't have so much corn syrup in everything if corn weren't a solution in search of a problem.
The difference between what is "Polish food" in the US versus what is actually popular to eat in Poland today reminds me of how the US, the product of waves of immigration, often contains a preserved time capsule of an imported culture. We have the equivalent of a 'regional accent' version of the food culture of the corresponding homeland. Imagine how confused I was to learn, for example, that actual Italian food culture was much more diverse than the New Jersey Italian Restaurant menu that is familiar in the northeastern and Great Lakes region of the US. So, there is this misconception that "vegan" food and "authentic ethnic cuisine" are mutually exclusive, but maybe we've stereotyped food cultures.
@“Kez”#p48638 Thank you for this! Tofu jerky sounds good, as does a seasoned trail mix. I like to cook on weekends, and those sound like things I can make big batches of.
@“tanuki”#p48681 i love this thought. The amount of meddling in our day to day is off the charts. I have a family member at a pretty big company that makes ordinary house hold stuff and he was like “we just make stuff and people will buy it cause that's what the marketers do.”
The idea of food being locked in a time capsule kinda makes sense and is intriguing. I bet we could spin another giant discussion on food authenticity if we wanted.
Side thought: oats are a S ranked food.
Another side thought: I was walking through a grocery store in the burbs and then a gas station and I'm so grossed out by the amount of cheap meat everywhere. Pretty sure the average American doesn't even equate meat to being from a living creature and is akin to a piece of frosted wheat.
Last side thought: America does almost everything wrong, but like a few things right.
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@“yeso”#p75947 lol he should've pitched his balsamic vinegar in here too.
@“yeso”#p75947 OH NO.
Huh, somehow I lost track of this thread until just now! Coincidentally, [I just tried a good new recipe for ハンバーグ](https://www.okonomikitchen.com/vegan-japanese-hamburger-steak/), which I had been really in the mood for for a while, and which I knew would be easy to make vegan, given all the faux ground 'meat' stuff that's appeared over the last several years. I also recently discovered that Bull-Dog tonkatsu sauce is vegan, so I used it in the sauce and as a replacement for vegan worcestershire sauce, which I have trouble finding lately.
I also wanted to add for no particular reason that there is a shocking SHOCKING (100 Mega Shock) number of grifters in the products sold by vegans to vegans marketplace.
@“Karasu”#p75960 there's really been some MLM-ish, crypto-adjacent vibes going on these days - perhaps you saw the big vegan meat recall that happened recently, where people were having to get their gall bladders removed and stuff, and the company addressed it with an instagram post saying “about XXX product” with a picture of it looking delicious and a “link in bio” lol
