Hi all, I was reading the thread about NFTs and Crypto the other day and I noticed a lot of people are passionate about the environment on this forum!

I was, therefore, wondering what people's thoughts are on veganism and animal agriculture are. Are there any vegans here? Anyone considering it but doesn't feel ready to take the plunge? Anyone vehemently against it as a concept?

Cards on the table, I have been a vegan for just about three years now, and a vegetarian for 10 years before that. I am extremely passionate about animal rights first and foremost. Although it is lately often approached from an environmental angle, I strongly believe that the vast amounts of unnecessary suffering and cruelty committed daily toward millions of sentient beings is the _worst_ thing about animal agriculture, and the only reason I need to be vegan. I do also believe that animal algriculture in various forms is a large contributing factor to almost every single current major global issue.

I know this is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, and I completely understand why. Even as a vegetarian I would balk at the concept of veganism, but in the past few years I have become more and more passionate about it. I am totally happy for anyone to chime in with their opinions here. I really like this community and read it a lot in my downtime - so I am fairly confident that this discussion will remain far more civil than many places on the net! Although I am still a little worried to bring it up. :)

I‘m always a bit wary of discussing veganism as a nearly life-long vegetarian, and it’s often gotten wrapped up into things like straightedge where there's at times a militance to it that makes it difficult to have a conversation about.

These days it's pretty easy to be vegan in california because most vegetarian stuff just goes all the way to vegan here, for the convenience of the restaurant, though that's not universally true. In restaurants I wind up eating vegan stuff, and I don't use many animal products at home, but we do sometimes have milk, eggs, cheese, wine, beer, etc.

I'll say that I do think it's probably better to be vegan than vegetarian, and that recent fake meat trends are going to help a lot in terms of agricultural impact. The biggest agricultural problems surround cows, their emissions, the feed that's grown just for their consumption, etc though it turns out you can reduce their emissions DRAMATICALLY by putting a little seaweed in their food. I am against animal cruelty, which is the main reason I did become vegetarian at age 8. But certified cruelty free eggs for example, are *closer* to just collecting the eggs chickens were already going to lay. Dairy from local farms around here have free roaming cows, though they are milked with a machine still I assume, which isn't great.

But these are the excuses I use, paying more for a less cruel product, but still imperfect. I also extremely controversially use leather products. Now, I don't buy new leather (I did it once by accident in another country!), but I'll buy used leather goods from thrift stores, because environmental-impact-wise, leather lasts *so long* that you wind up with less waste, less consumption, etc. My old neighbor uses reclaimed leather from car seats to make jackets and pouches and stuff. For example the leather belt I bought used in Japan in 2003 just broke last week. 18 years and I used that thing almost every day. I had a pair of leather boots I used for 13 years (I had to resole them once).

So I guess where I am on it is somewhere in a grey area. I think it's good for people to be vegan. I'm not going to be because I have a lot of self-denial for the benefit of the world already and I'm like... *pretty* good with food already. Where I diverge with veganism is the solid stance against leather, where I think buying used leather goods is more environmentally friendly than avoiding it entirely.

Uhhh I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than vaguely explaining my stance, but there it is more or less!

I‘ve been a vegetarian about 7 years (and a pescetarian a few years before that) and still get the asked why all the time (including from people I’ve told a dozen times). I‘ve given all the answers like factory farming conditions, environmental impact, personal health reasons, or just not liking meat… but in the end, once you’ve been a vegetarian for long enough, all of the above are true. Eating meat feels so distant at this point, I have no desire to go back.

The book _Eating Animals_ by Jonathan Safran Foer was formative in my actual plunge to change my dietary habits. I think it lays out the moral arguments quite well. I avoid talking about the morality though, because some people misinterpret it as being judgmental when I genuinely don't judge them at all. I also want to avoid the more confrontational people who launch into the "we evolved biologically to be omnivores" spiel because I feel like that's not a constructive conversation for either party.

I‘m probably 90% vegetarian with occasional social exceptions and I try to be deliberate in buying eggs and dairy. One thing I’ve noticed among vegan and vegetarian acquaintances is that they have visceral revulsion towards meat, which probably makes it easier to be adherent. The moral imperative combined with being grossed out by meat is a good formula for that I'll bet.

One semi ongoing project of mine has been de-meatifying Polish food. I make a lot of it and it's been fun to emphasis the fermented food/mushroom/root vegetable aspects, which helps a lot with the flavor and texture

Are there any cuisines that do vegan particularly well? The only time I've found vegan food to be good rather than at best approaching ok is Indian food...

I never have a good answer when people ask me why I‘m a vegetarian. I don’t get asked much anymore, but I used to say “I don't like eating meat” or “I don't like eating animals” and people wouldn‘t know what to say. I now realize that that’s not really an answer to the question, but it‘s all I’ve got. It was not a decision I made with the reasoning part of my mind; it was more like a spiritual revelation. It just gradually dawned on me that it was what I, personally, had to do. Took about a year between that realization and surprising everyone who knew me by suddenly cutting meat out completely one day in 2017. (I was the type of kid/teen who ate meat for every meal.)

Hearing Brandon and Tim on the pod was a part of this path; all the vegetarians I had known up until then had been super in my face about it, only to quietly start eating meat again a few months/years later. Brandon and Tim were the first to reveal to me the possibility of being a long-term vegetarian who was also cool.

I did not do any research RE a reasonable human diet, so I lost about 20lbs in my first year living alone, and I only weighed 150 to begin with as a 6ft tall person, so it was a little worrying. Eventually, I learned how to make hearty soups in order to keep myself alive. I avoided fake meat for the first few years; I think it's better to learn the capabilities of vegetables, legumes, and beans. Even now, I only really eat it when I have to stop at a fast food place for whatever reason.

@“yeso”#p48319 I made some stuffed cabbage the other day and am now thinking about what other fillings would be good to make it vegetarian. Would love to hear more about your Polish adventures. (My dad’s side of the fam is Polish but California is not exactly a thriving area for the food)

Being a vegetarian is complicated! I mostly eat vegetarian. My partner was a vegetarian for a long time like 10+ years but quit because of her own reasons. When we do eat meat we try to buy the best possible least harm stuff we can but it doesn‘t always happen. If someone serves meat or orders a pizza with meat and is sharing I just eat it. It’s not very cut and dry where I live. I also try and avoid buying leather products but like Brandon mentioned it does last impossibly long. I don‘t feel too bad about my own 10+ year old belt or ancient wallet, and I think recycling it is probably a smart move. I keep buying canvas shoes but they disintegrate pretty fast :smiley: whoops! What’s my next step there? The idea of getting a leather couch or something seems gross as heck.

I'm not sure I want to give up eggs ever. The old owners of our place had a chicken coop and its pretty common around here. Is it that bad to have your own chickens and eat the eggs? If it is, let me know! You may change my mind.

I also live in Wisconsin and although I'm in an ultra liberal dot in it, it's still very ruled by dairy. would be easier in another city I'm thinking.

Anyway those are my ramblings. I love the beyond beef stuff and other alternatives. Fake meat and milk have gotten way better in the last decade. Anything to get people eating less meat is good. Factory farms are essentially hell on earth.

I‘ve been vegan for a couple of years now. I wanted to be vegan since like I was 14 years old but there was too much stuff going in my life at that time and I didn’t want another thing to make me feel different than everybody else. So I waited until I was 18 when I was in a better place and had friends who where also non-meat eaters.

I thing my reason to start with veganism was just being anti-cruelty and caring about the enviroment, it's weird because when I decided I wanted to stop eating meat (some years before I actually did) I didn't give it much thought because I just thought of it as the logical thing for me to do if that makes sense.

What I didn't anticipate when transitioning into a vegan diet is that I became super passionate about cooking.
That started mostly because what I normally ate at home wasn't very easy to veganize, and the nearest vegan restaurants from me are like 30 minutes away and they are kind of expensive so that led me to learning how to cook more seriously and I enjoyed it immensely. And also being vegan has also led me to explore more diverse food and I've become really good at cooking indian and korean food.

I have kind of an obssesive personality so lately I've putting a lot of effort into trying to veganize stuff and make it taste as similar and good as the original recipes. Last month I baked a ton of pan de muerto and I took a lot of pride in the fact that even non-vegans loved it, couldn't distinguish it from regular pan de muerto and even preferred it over most bakeries' pan de muerto

And something I have enjoyed a lot as well since IRL hangouts became a possibility again was cooking for my friends, the other day I made some extemely delicious vegan nachos for them! (and like a month ago miso ramen!)

My brother has even said to me: "if all vegan food tasted as good as yours I would consider becoming vegan" and I take pride in that.

I don't know where to put this but I wanted to mention that as a child I had a recurrent nightmare from age 6-8 of a cow trying to kill me and sometimes kicking me out of my house. So maybe that's why I became vegan afterall?

Maybe I should share some of my vegan recipes in here?

This is an interesting thread for me because I am not vegan or vegetarian but I‘ve wanted to work that way for ethical reasons but always struggle with giving up meat for long periods of time. Maybe I’ll read the Foer book. I‘d be interested in other books/media that people have that are compelling/helpful. I think the big struggle for me is I’m just so used to eating meat that I have a hard time in the day-to-day slog of life of actually giving up meat for a long period of time. Not excusing it as ideal or right, but that's just the cycle I have been through many, many times.

Oof, this is a topic with a tremendous amount of weight to it! I‘ve been vegan for close to 20 years now, but I mostly avoid talking about it online for all kinds of reasons! Still, you brought it up @“Kez”#448 so I’ll throw in my thoughts. I'm going to be critical of the vegan community, but none of this is directed at anyone here!

I will say that I think we need a content warning for food, diet culture, and disordered eating around this thread! One of the reasons I hesitate to talk about being vegan online is that it can't really be separated from these things that all kinds of folks, vegan and otherwise, have dealt with or are dealing with!

Anyway! I started out as a health vegan and had a pretty abrupt transition into being an ethical vegan, which is mostly where I am now. Sometime around 2000, I started getting grossed out by the kinds of choices I was making (and the choices that were available to me) around what I was eating. I started exercising, something I hadn't done too much earlier. I went vegan over about a year total, where I gradually cut out meat, then dairy, and finally fish. The end result is that I felt much better and I lost a bunch of weight.

Living in Portland, OR during the late 2000's and early 2010's made it pretty much impossible to miss the idea that animal cruelty exists on an industrial scale and things like factory farms are immensely cruel on a scale and to a degree that the average person living in the US has no real idea about. They're also outsized in their impact on the environment, again on a scale and to a degree that most USians just don't know about. So by the mid-2000's I stopped worrying about the health food aspects of being vegan and got much more concerned about the ethics around being vegan.

These days though, I'm not willing to ever, under any circumstance, try and convince anyone to try being vegan. I'll bring it up with folks if we're going out for food, because I have to, and I'll talk about it with folks (like I'm doing right now), and I'll even discuss options and ways to be vegan to folks who ask me because they're interested. But I stopped ever trying to convince anyone about the merits of veganism sometime in the mid 2010's.

There are a bunch of reasons for this! Mostly because there are all kinds of reasons a person might not want to or even be able to be vegan:

  • 1. Being vegan is expensive! Not everyone can afford it, because (thanks capitalism) animal products have been advocated for and subsidized by governments for decades. Also, not everyone has access to the kinds of groceries you need to be vegan, either geographically or regionally.
  • 2. Some people aren't able to eat vegan because they have health issues that make it impossible or at least very hard. I've know at least a few folks who tried being vegan but had to reintroduce things like eggs because they needed the concentration of nutrients that eggs provide.
  • 3. Just like any diet-related thing, being vegan can lead to or adversely impact disordered eating. I've had friends get told by emphatic vegans that all they need to lose weight is to be vegan. Just like any diet, this is super harmful!
  • 4. The vegan community is not exactly welcoming! Both online and in real life, there are a bunch of folks who advocate for 100%, no compromise animal liberation, and that any and all outcomes that don't meet this criterion are unacceptable. To a bunch of these folks, I'm either not vegan enough, or not vegan at all in their minds, because I won't toe their ideological line.
  • Bonus Reason: a whole bunch of the lousy vegan communities I mentioned just now have an element of racism, elitism, and weird 'purity of essence' crap to them! And that's not even talking about the griftery side to the vegan community, which again we have capitalism to thank for.

    So anyway, that's why I stopped talking to people about being vegan! I also don't shame people who eat animal products, because like I said above, there are all kinds of reasons why someone might not be vegan that I might not realize from just talking to them. I am still vegan, and absent the oncoming climate catastrophe (or some sort of unexpected change in my circumstances), I'm likely to stay that way for the rest of my life. I like vegan food, mostly because I like food in general, and accidentally eating something with dairy in it a few years back has caused me to realize I've either become lactose intolerant or that I always was and just didn't notice. I went vegan partly because I had stated to think meat was gross, and that hasn't changed at all. I'm encouraged by all of the newer vegan quality of life products that have come out in the last 20 years, and it's also been interesting to see how common it is here in Canada for just average grocery stores and fast food places to have high quality vegan options available.

    Oof, I wrote a big ole wall of text! I knew @exodus is a vegan adjacent vegetarian, but it's interesting to see that I'm not the only vegan here!

    @“DavidNoo”#p48326 It‘s really tough in some parts of the country for sure, Back when I lived in Memphis and Kansas City, I definitely had to settle for side-salads at a lot of restaurants or just avoid eating at social gatherings at BBQ places. It can be isolating for sure, but it’s been getting better over the last 10 years from what I‘ve seen. I’ve found restaurants in most cities and large towns want to accommodate even if there's nothing expressly on the menu, sometimes the waiter can help. People are generally more cool with substitutions in the midwest more than on the east coast at least.


    @“rearnakedwindow”#p48328 Maybe I’ll read the Foer book. I’d be interested in other books/media that people have that are compelling/helpful.

    I'd definitely recommend it!

    I don't really engage with that much vegetarian/vegan media, but I have a friend who gave up fish after he watched _Seaspiracy_ on Netflix, because it goes into how 'sustainable seafood' is a corporate lie. For what its worth, it's mostly well researched but worth looking into objective fact-checks because some stuff is oversimplified or dramatized a bit by being a Netflix documentary. Personally I find those kinds of arguments more compelling than documentaries that just show how the meat processing plants work, like the Joaquin Phoenix documentary _Earthlings_. I think it just kind of depends on what your appetite is like, if you prefer seeing uncomfortable truths vs. being reasoned into it.

    Wow! Lots of really interesting responses here. I‘ll try to keep my thoughts as brief as I can. First of all, @“穴”#p48327 I would be super interested in your recipes! I also have become a foodie since turning vegan, I absolutely love cooking. I think for me I was carrying around a sort of emotional baggage around eating animal products that I didn’t want to acknowledge, and my relationship with food was tainted by that. I mostly try to eat whole foods rather than processed vegan products - it is really cool and interesting to see all these new vegan products coming to market, and it's great being able to eat out in more places but mostly I just buy fruit and vegetables, nuts, beans, etc.

    In terms of eggs and dairy, I won't go into it in too much detail here but I consider them to be as just bad or even worse than any other animal farming from an ethical standpoint. I will put the rest of this paragraph in spoiler tags as it may be distressing to some. >!In the egg industry, the overwhelming majority of male chicks are killed within a few days by being minced alive, gassed, electrocuted or suffocated (several billion per year). The life of a dairy cow is one of being repeatedly sexually abused and subsequently having your new born baby stolen from you (many mothers cry out for their baby for days or weeks on end until they lose their voices). The babies are stored in tiny enclosures for weeks on end, often outside in horrible weather conditions.!<

    I personally do not think it is possible to commodify animals and animal products and still treat them ethically. Businesses will always maximize profits, and thus they will generally, at best, do the absolute bare minimum to meet whatever regulations exist. Although many undercover operations expose that even these regulations are repeatedly being ignored. Most of the various "ethical/sustainable/free range/etc" certifications are self-regulated by the industry, with laughably low barriers for entry and once again many of these have been shown to make no effort to enforce their rules or audit their members.

    @"DavidNoo"#p48326 In terms of "back yard eggs". There are compelling arguments against them. There is a good video on the topic here:

    The TL;DW is that these hens are selectively bred to produce insane quantities of eggs, at severe detriment to their own health. The egg shells of course contain a lot of calcium, thus the hens lose bone density and suffer from conditions like osteoperosis as a result. They can regain a lot of this lost nutrition by eating their own eggs, and they are also less inclined to lay more eggs if their eggs are not taken away from them.

    @"yeso"#385 Indian cuisine certainly lends itself very well to veganism. I'm not sure if I can name any cuisines that I think veganism does better than others, but I think you can do them all fairly well. I also am pretty confident that all of the best food I have eaten has been vegan and I don't ever feel like I'm missing out! This is mostly because I have gained a new appreciation for food and cooking since becoming vegan (and I know a lot of people who have had similar experiences - even people who really loved cooking already go at it with renewed vigor. There is an extra layer of satisfaction to be found in making something delicious _and_ vegan). Most any cuisines can be made vegan without too much trouble, the overwhelming majority of ingredients are plant based after all. I have had more success playing to the strengths of the ingredients over trying to accurately replicate the taste or texture of meat.

    As I've already said, animal welfare is at the heart of why I am vegan and why I care about it so much. Cows, pigs, chickens, sheep, turkeys etc. are all animals not that different from us. They have unique personalities, they feel fear, they feel pain and they suffer. Whenever I spend time with an animal and enjoy their company or observe their unique personality quirks, I think about how all the animals in farms around the world are just as emotionally deep and unique as the one in front of me, and how miserable their lives must be, how many billions of them are going through hell at this momemt. It's not hyperbole to say that it reduces me to tears on a fairly regular basis (even as I'm writing this). Many of my closest friends and family members, people I love - good, nice compassionate people, are completely unfazed by it, contributing to it every day.. it can be a very alienating experience.

    Oh, and with regards to leather (and silk, and wool). To me it again comes down to the commodification of animals. As long as it is normal/acceptable to treat animals and animal products as property, animals will be exploited and suffer. If everyone decided only secondhand leather was okay to wear.. we'd run out quite quickly I think, and then it would become more expensive and sought after. Then we'd probably end up in a situation where people are making new leather and pretend it's old, or illegally producing leather in a black market completely without oversight. In my opinion, the only long term solution is the erasure of the cultural acceptability of wearing animals.

    Yeah, there‘s definitely some disordered eating stuff associated sometimes, even if only the "obsessive about one’s intake" aspect.

    I also don't try to convert anybody, but I have very definitely noticed that most of the folks who made fun of me for being vegetarian in highschool are asking me for recipes and advice now. I'm lucky in that I knew from childhood that vegetarianism in general requires a certain kind of attention to protein intake, so at this point I don't have to think about it at all. I eat beans sometimes, nuts sometimes, brown rice, quinoa, and call it a day.

    In terms of what cuisines lend themselves well to veganism, there are quite a few!!

  • -

    taiwanese. There‘s lots of taiwanese buddhist vegetarians and taiwan already isn’t dairy-heavy. the thing to watch for here is the “oil as flavor” idea. since taiwanese buddhist vegetarian types also eschew garlic, green onion, etc they wind up with a lot of flavored oils to impart flavor, and it‘s definitely the community I’ve seen with the least healthy vegetarians. So watch out for that!

  • -

    indian/indo-manchurian. pretty easy to cut out the dairy and eggs here by just avoiding certain dishes.

  • -

    japanese food is massively easy to make vegan yourself but they will never ever do it in a restaurant (just exchange kelp/etc for dashi).

  • -

    ethiopian/eritrean. injera is vegan if you get rid of the small amount of honey they use, and a lot of the main dishes are "a vegetable and/or bean boiled for hours with spices" basically.

  • -

    california cuisine. a bunch of this is vegan or has vegan options already.

  • One thing I want to point out is that vegetarian/vegan restaurant food is getting so much better. It used to all be (as it still is in much of europe), oh, you want a vegetarian thing? here's a mushroom. or here's 3 boiled vegetables with salt. There was no consideration of the art of making food.

    The first place *in my life* that I ever got the experience of "this food pairs with that food and goes with this wine" was at a vegan restaurant called Sanctuary in Berkeley, CA. They would put out vegan "pates" and "cheeses" and you'd try one with one bread or another and have a different experience. Or if you didn't get a little sprig of green onion in there it'd taste totally different than if you had it. Plus their vegan wines would pair with specific dishes. I had literally never experienced this thing that food shows talk about (and movies make fun of) until I was like 35. Unfortunately they closed because the chef had to go back to wherever to take care of their family. I wish everybody in here could have experienced it, it was really fantastic.

    But like @"Karasu"#65 says, it's pricey to have this experience. As great as it was I only went 4 or 5 times because it wound up costing two weeks groceries for one meal.

    Also I'm definitely one of those "meat grosses me out" people, but alsooooooo I can't digest it anymore, so if there's a bit of meat in a thing I get sick. With this in mind I'm curious what everyone's experience with "impossible" meat is. My partner likes it because she doesn't mind the taste of meat, and still has to eat it sometimes when visiting her parents. For me, I've tried it like a half dozen times now, and at first I'm like "I can probably eat this" but 1/3 or 1/2 way through my brain start setting off all those "you're eating meat! you're gonna get sick!" signals and I start psychosomatically getting discomfort and basically have to stop eating it.

    Ultimately I think all those "I could never be vegetarian, I love meat too much" people should not become vegetarians, let alone vegans. And I'll never try to convince them. But I will talk to them about where their meat comes from and sourcing "good" stuff, and people are generally interested in that conversation once they realize I don't want to change their eating habits, just inform their consumption habits.

    having a hard time keeping this focused today :o

    P.S. being a vegetarian who hates mushrooms is not so good lol. they trigger my gag reflex.

    I wish I was vegan, and I was close to being it. However I have quite serious health issues and I‘ve recently been heavily advised to start eating meat again which is morally frustrating on one hand but also I don’t especially want my health to get worse.

    However where I do have some dietary leeway is with animal produce. I still drink dairy milk, eat yoghurt and occasionally cheese but I've swapped to using vegan alternatives more frequently than I used to and I feel like I'm in a relatively comfortable transition trajectory to minimising animal produce consumption within the realms of my dietary requirements.

    I've plenty of respect for anyone that can maintain a healthy vegetarian or vegan diet, or at least anyone that makes an attempt to minimise their consumption of meat or animal products - it's hard!

    I've attempted vegetarianism in the past and it would be pretty difficult to angle myself that way as of now. It mostly came around because when I moved out of home and found that buying meat was so expensive. I had moments in the past as a child too, like eating ribs and realising I was holding an actual animal bone.

    I think factory farming is abhorrent and try to avoid it when I can. I think eating food like eggs, honey, milk and cheese are fine if they have come from ethical sources i.e. free range. Fish is difficult, I think trawling is horrible for marine environments, but catching fish in a net doesn't bother me, but bycatch does. Recently I've been having trouble with buying meat dishes from restaurants or takeaways, it's unlikely they use free range chicken or eggs as factory farmed is cheaper and lets them maximise profits.

    I know humans are animals and omnivores by nature. We are part of the foodchain and if I was living caveman style or even a few hundred years ago I would have no problems eating anything. The industrilisation of farming really made it a whole lot more complicated.

    I like to think if I was earning more money I would probably buy a lot more meat alternatives.

    p.s: I'm not trying to convince anyone of not being vege or vegan just explaining how I think of it. I do think full-vegan is a little silly though.

    I don‘t think impossible meat is very close to the real thing. It’s not bad, but it seems like something people who don't eat meat think meat is like.

    @"sabertoothalex"#p48324 how did you make your gołabki aka cabbage rolls? Kasza/buckwheat filling is a good traditional vegetarian way to make them. Lots of recipes out there

    A few other fun recipes I'd recommend:

    Red barszcz with mushroom uszka

    knedle ze śliwkami (potato dumpling with plum)

    gulasz with winter root vegetables and potato pancake

    I think polish food has a meat-heavy rep, but if you look further into more traditional recipes you can find lots of peasants-who-can't-afford-meat ingenuity

    There‘s a lot of good non-meat polish stuff, I’ve been to a bunch of polish vegetarian restaurants… in poland! the main thing to be careful of there is like… there's bone broth or beef stock or whatever in this soup! gotta replace it with something! etc

    In Krakow, Glonojad has a lot of traditional foods in vegan form... it looks like my favorite burger place closed down.

    and @yeso my partner thinks the burgers are pretty accurate, I dunno. I certainly know more about what meat smells like than tastes like at this point.


    @“exodus”#p48344 P.S. being a vegetarian who hates mushrooms is not so good lol. they trigger my gag reflex

    I…. Absolutely agree! Mushrooms are fine for folks who like them, but I’ve never been able to stand them! No portobello burgers for me I guess!


    @“exodus”#p48344 In terms of what cuisines lend themselves well to veganism, there are quite a few!!

    You can find a lot of Indonesian restaurants that have vegan options!

    Also, a bunch of Hungarian food can be made vegan (and is delicious)!