The thing with Sega games (especially Yuji Naka games) is their reliance on physics and movement means you have to intuit a lot of how the system works. These aren‘t the games you come to understand through rational interrogation, like a good strategy game; they’re the games you understand by sacrificing yourself to the game flow. In Sonic‘s case, though, this has proven something of a double-edged sword. It’s essentially a trust in exercise that either the mechanics or the level design of later games (depends on who you ask) isn't entirely prepared to facilitate.
@“airconditioner”#p65271 i always love reading these accounts of people experiencing the great pantheon games for the first time in a totally modern context. the original sonic has so much friction. i dunno, what kind of feeling do you get when you jump to get the first three rings in green hill zone 1?
the other thing to say is do not try to walk up hills
Fellow Nintendo Generation member here (well, I had a Sega Genesis, but it was not my primary console). Also somewhat cynical about the early Sonic the Hedgehog games, in the sense that I think they're kind of overrated.
I think, though, even sometimes among dedicated _Sonic_ likers, it's not uncommon to feel that the game what was marketed as a game in which one could go fast, in fact had many design elements within it which made going fast difficult, unwieldy, and not practical to do for very long.
As I understand it, though, _Sonic 2_ is significantly better in this respect.
@“Video_Game_King”#p65273 This is an interesting way to look at it; because if felt like a lot of trust. “If I don‘t input a direction, I’ll have enough momentum to get up the hill”, for example. It‘s an interesting relationship, and kind of surprising for such a prolific game, but I was also surprised with how many times I got hit by enemies I didn’t see.
@"tapevulture"#p65275 The feeling is definitely worth talking about, because Sonic 1 is definitely not about Going Fast. Sonic has so many enemies that'll hurt you if your not reacting before they appear. It makes for a great play experience when you've memorized the level, but as a first time player, it was rough. Green Hill Zone, compared to the other levels, felt the best because it was the breeziest.
Also, I think the Sega Genesis Collection on Switch has a lot of dropped inputs, or at least that's how it felt. Made for a rough experience, to say the least.
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@“tapevulture”#p65275 i dunno, what kind of feeling do you get when you jump to get the first three rings in green hill zone 1?
As a counterpoint, you have to jump to get the first...any mushroom in *Super Mario Bros.*, and rings are *Sonic*'s equivalent to mushrooms.
@“Gaagaagiins”#p65279 I‘m excited to play Sonic 2 later today, because I’ve heard that too. I had a Sonic 2/3 collection on PC growing up, so I‘ve played through a good deal of those already. Hoping to bring in some new context to appreciate them now in a way younger-me couldn’t.
@“airconditioner”#p65271 The 2D Sonics are a lot more repetition-based than the 2D Marios and other platformers you might be used to. A lot of the fun (for me at least) is really learning the levels inside out so you can get through them smoothly. In this way, maybe they’re more like STGs. Sonic 1 in particular is very inconsistent. E.g. Labyrinth Zone kind of sucks. Sonic 2 mostly figures it out and is pretty great, though you might still find it unpolished compared to a Mario game
@“airconditioner”#p65281 definitely do not play any of the genesis collection on switch in docked mode. input lag made them unplayable for me. also landstalker is unplayable with the 4 separated dpad buttons
i still like sonic 1 more than 2. it's shorter and in my opinion the ultra hard later levels are still easier than the later levels in sonic 2, although in both games they're basically psycho shit. you are creeping forward on absolute pins and needles hoping to not trigger whatever enemy is waiting to shoot a spiked ball at you on some unavoidable angle. i've still never beaten the last boss of sonic 2.
also 1 has better music. owned
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@“saddleblasters”#p65284 they’re more like STGs
this is so true. sonic is about level memorization whereas mario tests your reaction time and understanding of mario's momentum. no human could react fast enough to fly out of a loop-de-loop in sonic and jump over the wall of spikes that were specifically put there to kill you. whereas i feel like it's theoretically possible for a savant to beat SMW without getting hit, if they had been raised on a diet of mario maker levels. much as it pains me to admit it mario is better.......
sonic mania is probably the best sonic honestly. of course the music could never be as good, but it's basically the sonic aesthetic, you can turn off the timer and just explore, all of the hatred has been expunged from the level design, and you can roll into a ball and get shot out of a gun
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@“tapevulture”#p65287 also 1 has better music
wrong
https://youtu.be/vKUcIaGvSmw
(though yeah… there is this wistful melancholy in the music from the first game (exemplified by green hill zone) that just completely goes away in later games.)
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@“Gaagaagiins”#p65279 I think, though, even sometimes among dedicated Sonic likers, it’s not uncommon to feel that the game what was marketed as a game in which one could go fast, in fact had many design elements within it which made going fast difficult, unwieldy, and not practical to do for very long.
just going fast doesn't really feel fast. avoiding a succession of things that would slow you down is what gives a feeling of speed.
i think the idea is to encourage you to go fast when you don't necessarily have to. not to push you to go fast, but entice you to push yourself to go fast. i believe i've read yuji naka say he wanted to capture the feeling of street racing, though i might've dreamt that.
i also think NiGHTS did it better than sonic, but that's neither here nor there.
wow, look what i just noticed:
[upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/e3bKxg0.jpeg]
@“airconditioner”#p65281
Sonic 1 is a proof-of-concept for substantially better Sonic games to be designed later. Sonic 2 is better overall (though metal sonic is too hard). No, I'm not using spoiler tags on that. Sonic 3/& Knuckles is really really good and so is Sonic Mania. Honestly, you can just skip to those games.
Play _Sonic CD_ if you want to play the _Bonk's Adventure_ of Sonic games (which you do, because you post on this forum).
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@“saddleblasters”#p65296 there is this wistful melancholy in the music from the first game (exemplified by green hill zone) that just completely goes away in later games
I submit "Endless Mine" from _Sonic 3_ and various mixes of "Tidal Tempest" from _Sonic CD_ as counterexamples.
@“saddleblasters”#p65296 do not get me started posting the best sonic music……
Update: I played a bit of Sonic 2 before bed last night and enjoyed that MUCH more than Sonic 1. I'm surprised with just how much they managed to tune the flow between the two games.
@"antillese"#p65332 Agreed. Probably my favorite thing about Sonic 1 is the worldbuilding. There's an astonishing amount of cohesion and style in the graphic design that easily draws you in.
I think I somehow have yet to post in this thread, which doesn't seem right…
Anyway, I've been a Sonic superfan ever since I first saw Sonic 2 at a friends house probably in 1993. My parents didn't want me to have a game console for a while but I did get a Game Gear, read the Archie comics, and watched both SatAM and AoStH (as the cool kids called 'em) with dedication. I have to say that the 8-bit Sonic games are a lot better than a lot of folks assume (although the first boss in Sonic 2 kind of ruins that game on Game Gear). Tails' Adventure especially was a standout title.
I eventually did get a Genesis and absolutely ate up those 16-bit Sonic games and ended up getting every single Sonic game I could (with the exceptions of any Pico games and Sonic's Schoolhouse for PC). I loved those games, I loved the characters, as soon as my family got the internet, I made a little Sonic fan site, I even had an OC to use for a Sonic roleplaying chat.
Eventually my love for Sonic started to fade; the comics appealed to me less and less in the early 2000s and I let my subscription lapse. I didn't play Sonic Adventure 2 at launch and when I got around to it, it didn't excite me as much as SA1. Sonic Heroes was a letdown and I stopped feeling like I had to get every single Sonic game. But when I was in college, I randomly picked up an issue of the comic while I was at a supermarket (#168 I believe) and to my surprise: IT WAS GOOD! They had gotten rid of Ken Penders and Ian Flynn was proving himself to be a far better writer. I started reading the comic regularly again and #175 really impressed me as maybe the best Sonic comic I had read. I re-subscribed and made it my mission to fill in all the holes in my collection.
I have every single non-compilation Sonic comic published in the US, with every variant cover of every Archie-published comic. I have the issues of Comic Shop News that serialized the Turnabout Heroes story. I have the promotional mini-comic from 1991, the promotional Archie # 1/4, the specials, the spin-offs, *everything*. They aren't all in great condition because I absolutely reread them to hell and back as a child, but they're all there! I stopped getting every variant when IDW started publishing because there where some covers that were going for ~$100 out of the gate and I just couldn't afford it. But I still have the entire IDW series and spinoffs! I have to say the IDW series is pretty good and I'm enjoying it more than I did a lot of the later Archie stuff.
I only got around to playing Sonic Mania last year (I didn't have anything that could run it until 2020) but I loved my time with it. I want to like Sonic games, but I'm just too skeptical that they aren't going to give me what I want.
@“Nemoide”#p65446 Reminded by your post that I once had a few issues of the comic and finally looked up which ones.
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They had gotten rid of Ken Penders
Looks like issues 129, 134, 135, 137, 138, and 140 all had this Penders guy as a writer. #129 features [a competitive race on a desert planet. Sonic competes against racers from all around the galaxy for a monetary prize which, if he wins, he can use to repair his ship, which ship he puts at stake in order to enter the race.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_%E2%80%93_The_Phantom_Menace)
Of further note, I bought these at an age when I thought Shadow was definitely the coolest Sonic character. He shows up six issues after I stopped reading! What a fool I was.
@deadbeat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suqh0vJlAco
@“captain”#p68161 I jumped on that video real quick when i saw it, love gettin a hit of validation heh heh. Kinda surprised thor didn’t already have a big sonic 06 vid.
https://twitter.com/nakayuji/status/1539944869862354944?s=20&t=19YRiF8RLGpQHPAndHWrlA
Yuji Naka's Twitter is my new favorite. The man is done, he's done with it