@“Andy B”#p135539 I don’t understand stagger mechanics in action rpgs and at this point I’m too afraid to ask. So I’m attacking, and then they get staggered… and I keep attacking?
I think it matters a lot based on how the game in question implements them.
It kind of works for it at the end of the day, but, I think the way FFVIIR does stagger mechanics don't really paint them in the best light because it's just kind of establishing a rhythm to the overall combat and kind of incentivizing the player to remember to put in some tactical variety into their combat routines. It doesn't take a rocket slime to figure out that if you get a time sensitive window with a generous damage multiplier that also incapacitates the enemy, you'll want to save your strongest attacks for that window. There is not a _whole lot_ of pressure on the player to initiate a stagger, it's generally understood that you can and will stagger an enemy eventually by continuing to attack them.
I think the best implementation of a stagger mechanic is found in two recent From Software games: _Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice_ and _Armored Core 6: Fires of Rubicon._ The main difference in implementation there is that there is a sort of psychological push and pull and a gameplay risk and reward to how a player achieves a stagger in the first place, because the rate at which any enemy's stagger _recovers_ is on a highly perceptible (and markedly quicker in comparison to, say, FFVIIR/FFXVI/heck even FFXIII) timeframe. You have to play with a certain aggressive attitude in order to stagger enemies consistently, or even stagger enemies at all. In _Sekiro_ in particular you will make progress towards draining an enemy's life bar (or bars, as is the case with pretty much all bosses) by hitting them with any attacks, but being relentlessly aggressive and achieving technical mastery over the game's systems enough to instead stagger enemies basically means you're skipping the remainder of their life bar(s).
I think when "stagger mechanics" are done well it inspires that almost fighting game mentality of having to overwhelm an opponent and put them on a back foot in order to stagger an enemy. Again, I think there are a lot of ways _FFVIIR_ and other games make it work anyway, or perhaps they cleverly craft the illusion of doing it the way that is more demanding on the player, but if you can maintain an enemy's "stagger" without much effort, and outside of purposefully not engaging in combat mechanics there is little risk of an enemy "recovering" their proximity to being staggered, it's kind of just like a timer for when to do your big moves. So, in those cases, there isn't much to "get," it really is a bit like a psychological trick to make it feel cool when the numbers get way bigger and the health bar drains way faster at a semi-regular rhythm and in a way that is fairly predictable and satisfying to achieve. And, just to reiterate, there's nothing wrong with this when it's done well. Personally I cannot get enough of the numbers getting big
@“Mnemogenic”#p139658 I did this with Sekeiro and Dark Souls 3, but with the final optional bosses (>!Demon of Hatred!< and >!Midir!<, respectively). Was saving the final boss until after those guys, but those fights just sucked (>!Demon fight sucks because he's just a Bloodborne boss who got lost and wandered into the wrong game!< and >!Midir has 3 much health!<)
@“captain”#258 ok I confess: the only reason I‘m not more interested in playing Tales of Symphonia is because I think Lloyd dresses like a dork. Compared to Luke, Yuri and Velvet—I mean of course I’m going to gravitate toward the sexier entries. I'll still play it though, look
@“connrrr”#p141985||I‘m just joshing, it’s OK to prefer the ab window|| HOWEVER I am a sucker for cavalry officer-type double breasted button placement (even if they do run all the way down the elbow)
@“Andy B”#p135539 My controversial(?) opinion related to this is that in terms of Final Fantasy, the stagger mechanic was at its best in XIII and then only got progressively worse with each new iteration (LR: XIII, VIIR, and XVI).
_XIII_ used stagger really well as a way to add variety to encounters, and it was always very clear how to build stagger. Using ravagers (light elemental attacks) helps build the gauge, using commandos and saboteurs helps stabilize the gauge (makes it drain slower, adds time to the stagger duration) and that holds for every enemy in the game. Staggering an enemy always adds 100% to the gauge and starts to cause the gauge to reset. Some abilities (e.g. Launch) only work on staggered enemies and provide a very good reward for staggering. Some enemies become more susceptible to status conditions when staggered too. The game very clearly tells you the % at which every enemy staggers. A fight where an enemy staggers at 150% is very different and has a different cadence than a fight where an enemy staggers at 650%. With a high stagger % like that, you may choose simply to not stagger the enemy and just rest on a high multiplier (e.g. 500%) because that's enough damage and it might be better to just stay there and do damage rather than drain the gauge and have to build the bar up again. This isn't that hard to do manually (just be somewhat careful about your inputs), but there is also an ability for some weapons called Stagger Lock that is built around this idea.
_LR: XIII_ - the biggest thing is a big overhaul to the visuals. The stagger bar no longer tells you %s at which you stagger an enemy and instead shows what looks like a heart rate graph thing. It kinda works, but it can be hard to tell how close you are to staggering enemies or even tell when they are staggered. They also did a few weird things with stagger - I remember specifically that the superboss requires you to stagger him 4 times in a row but that it can be really hard to tell if you've staggered him and how many times you've done it. Overall, it just feels a bit sloppier presentation-wise. I guess I should also mention that even though _LR: XIII_ doesn't have the same roles e.g. commando, ravager, that _XIII_ does, it still works pretty similarly - elemental spells (all of the old ravager spells) help build stagger faster, then there are attacks (the old commando abilities) that do more damage
_VIIR_ - pretty massive downgrade moving from the XIII series to this. Stagger is mostly just a reward for doing the thing you should already be doing. There are certain abilities (some of Tifa's and Aerith's) that help build stagger a bit faster, but it doesn't feel as integral to the combat system as it does in _XIII_. It's kinda fun once you've already staggered an enemy to unleash all of Tifa and Aerith's abilities on them and try to raise the stagger % as high as possible, but I'd also say it's less fun than any random battle in _XIII_. Stagger doesn't raise your damage % until the enemy is already staggered, so no stagger lock strats. For every enemy in the game stagger goes from 100% --> 160% damage, so it doesn't add variety in the same way. Stagger only lasts a few seconds, which feels pretty anti-climatic. As far as I know, there aren't really any rewards for stagger other than extra damage - there isn't anything like Launch or enemies losing resistance to status conditions. There's a mechanic called "pressured" where if you hit an enemy with an element they are weak to they become pressured for a second and you can build the stagger gauge faster. It's kinda just a new name for something that already existed in the older stagger systems
