I‘m finding the souls mechanics conventions to be more irritating than usual myself, I think because of the wider structure and scope of this game. The oblique multiplayer and death and return repetition was in lockstep with demon’s thematically and structurally. But I‘m not sure it really makes sense in ER, or at least it’s not as fully coherent. What's keeping me going through this game is the spectacle, but as with SMTV I think the mechanic just sort of lift off from the good stuff and you get like a pile of iceberg lettuce getting the burger all wet and tasteless
also thanks to “Hugh Jaynis” for the summon assistance w Rennala just now if you see this much appreciated
@“treefroggy”#p62224 Even if it‘s simpler it’s still needlessly obtuse in a way that adds nothing to the game. As much as I love this game there are a ton of tiny instructional and mechanical decisions that baffle me.
The game gives me tutorializations on naturally understandable things and well-established conventional game mechanics, but leaves me in the dark on it's weirdly obscure and unique mechanics.
They made all these concessions in certain ways to make aspects of the game straightforward and streamlined, like coming around to the fact that jump buttons are a good thing and an arbitrary series of button presses is bad. So it makes these decisions so odd. I solved the game, but I haven't been able to solve how to play multiplayer. That says a lot about the game - and probably me.
Elden Ring loves to teach you the ABCs, but refuses help on algebra.
I should‘ve worded myself clearer I know there are tutorials for multiplayer. I’m saying they over explain things that are simple and under explain the obscure. I don‘t need a tutorial on the map or bird’s eye telescope if I‘ve already activated them. At that point it’s meaningless.
IMO things aren't exactly in clear language. Had I not played a Souls game before I'd be somewhat clueless as to what the term summon sign is, etc. If I was in my current position w/ 0 DS experience I would just assume the game was buggy and multiplayer didn't work. These "usual caveats" are the things I'm talking about that it neglects teaching for no apparent reason. How am I supposed to know summon signs don't work if someone's not close to the same level as me? What level difference is that? Do I have to put my summon signs in the blue circle areas on the map or can I put them anywhere?
One tutorial treats me like I've never played a modern video game before, another expects that I'm versed in From game mechanics and terms. It makes no sense to me.
One of the big things to remember is that other players have to opt in to being summoned. I have done it a few times around hard bosses that I would like to refight for the Runes. But I never just turn it on while questing. So you're gonna have very hit and miss results on being able to summon people depending on where you are in the game / what system you are on. I have only been able to summon in extra players once and it was before one of the big optional bosses. I have come to rely far more heavily on my Spirit Ashes.
@“Syzygy”#p62263 I used the finger remedies several times throughout my first play through from the start and am now using them constantly. I have never seen a single player‘s summon sign. I would definitely think a new player would be stumped to exactly what’s up in my situation, because I have half a clue and I'm stumped.
I think knowing what a map and a telescope do in a modern game are the bare minimum of "common sense" in a game, yet they DO explain those. I think that would make a huge difference knowing the level reqs. Why not just show me the signs any way and make them a slightly different color and state that there's a level difference? If I'm trying to play with a friend and we varied in levels that would be a very big potential headache averted, just to know that's a mechanic in the game.
I’ve found summoning to be pretty slow, which is surprising considering the huge number of players out there. I’ve suspected this is because of the prevalence of ghost summons, which you cannot use when you’ve summoned a cooperator and vice versa. Since cooperators increase the boss difficulty and ghosts do not - it often makes more sense pragmatically to use a ghost.
I‘m really surprised y’all are finding summoning to be slow. Not only have summons rapidly appeared whenever I‘m looking for them, but I’m often being summoned instantly.
And I'll add that the internet connection I use is from my iphone, tethered to my PC via USB, because I live in a van down by the river.
Summoning players has helped me massively; I’ve used it in pretty much every session of play (though not for every_thing_.)
It’s got me through some tricky catacomb bosses (though I’ve done both mainline bosses alone for propriety), and I’ve tried to follow up each act of being helped with an act of helping on the same boss. Though there’s been a couple of times where a Goku-level player or two have basically rollercoastered me through a whole dungeon, which I have to say leaves a mixed feeling.
It sounds like there might be some confusion on the summoning beacons. Apologies if I’m explaining something everyone understands, but since the game doesn’t actually say it: you only ever summon players by using a furled finger remedy. This counts for individual furled messages AND pool/beacon messages. The difference is, you only ever see those on the floor in front of a physical beacon. When you yourself use your beacon item, the game effectively writes your gold summon sign in front of every nearby beacon, and whoever grabs it, grabs it. I’m on PS5, and I don’t think I’ve waited more than 30 seconds before being called in this way.
So if you’re stuck you look for a beacon nearby, and it’s pretty much your summoning sign bulletin board. That, or a few steps in front of whatever’s killing you. I think summon signs in the ‘overworld’ must be pretty rare.
Good system, I think! Wish they’d explained it 10% more. The thing I’m not sure about is beacon activation: does that add the beacon to the list of beacons that your sign will appear on, or make summoning signs appear in front of it? I think its the first one - as a way of making sure you can never get beacon-summoned to a place you haven’t been yet.
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@“Salloumi”#p62277 When you yourself use your beacon item, the game effectively writes your gold summon sign in front of every nearby beacon,
-and I’m glad of it. I want to help people _near_ me, darnit. I think it would feel disorientating if you were pulled out of your biome >!any more than you already are!<
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@“Syzygy”#p62252 I don’t think we can put it on the game that you used an item and then forgot about it.
You've misinterpreted what I meant by having been summoned at random times and places. I hadn't forgotten about the Blue Cipher Ring, and intentionally leave it activated at all times. By random times and places, I meant that in about 80 hours of play, it has triggered I think about five times or so. More than half of them having been when I first got it and activated it, and then two or three times after that in the aforementioned random times and places.
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@“Syzygy”#p62263 The game could tell you what level range you can summon exactly, but think about what would be gained from that? … Either there are eligible signs or there aren’t.
What would be gained from that is related to something else you said:
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@“Syzygy”#p62263 Nor do I think a conscientious new player would have cause to be stumped: Finger Remedy says it reveals multiplayer signs, what does that mean? They use the item and then huh, there are new objects in the game world, which when interacted say “summon so-and-so?”
What you've described there is the ideal scenario--the player finding something to interact with, experimenting with it, and having the desired outcome. The issue with that sequence of events is that if it doesn't happen in just that way when a new player is hoping to learn about the practical application of their new tool, that learning process may not happen as described. Maybe they use a Remedy in a place where they think they'll find signs but don't see anything because it's not necessarily where players would think to put signs, maybe they don't figure out the effects of a Remedy don't persist through death, whatever. Most players will base a perception of how multiplayer works in a hands-on sense on their initial impressions. If those experiences are positive and work as intended they're more likely to keep at it. But if the text tutorials aren't clear enough to correct whatever it is they aren't doing correctly, they'll probably stick to using Spirit summoning perpetually.
One major advantage for showing summon signs even if they are ineligible to be summoned is that it would be an extra stream of information feedback coming out of an opaque system. I completely agree with you on the fact that it is a good thing that the game does not allow you to summon players who are just going to steamroll the boss for you (sidenote, I wish it'd just power sync strong co-operators down but I digress). However, this creates an issue. The game offers very little information about what is an appropriate level to be somewhere and/or fight something, beyond I guess how many attacks you can get hit by before you die or how long it takes you to kill anything. The problem I think this causes with regards to multiplayer is that if you are enough of an outlier in terms of your character level (maybe you're doing things in a weird order so you're underleveled, or you're overleveled because you're not so skilled at the game but have been compensating by power leveling) for where you want to engage in multiplayer, there's no real indication that you're trying to engage in co-op play in a way the game is deciding to mostly opt you out of without telling you that's what's happening. In general, I think this is one of the major disadvantages of so much of the specifically real-time multiplayer features being invisible by default. The more a player gets used to playing in isolation the less well positioned they're going to be somewhere down the line to get back in.
In other words, being able to see summon signs that surely my instance of the game knows are there but that one can't summon for whatever reason, allows a player who wants to engage in multiplayer some indication of why they can't, so if they are committed to doing something with multiplayer, they can troubleshoot. I mean, for myself last night trying to beat a boss I feel would have been a great multiplayer experience, I'm not going to use a Remedy in between every attempt and/or wait around at the fog gate hoping to see a summon sign for very long when I could just be fighting the boss myself. Knowing I'd be able to see summon signs that had been placed but that I wouldn't be able to summon would have at least been an indication of either what I was doing wrong or that I'm the only person at that level range doing that content at that time. I don't know how likely that is.
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@“Syzygy”#p62252 the summoning pool system is designed to get people to play whole dungeons / areas together instead of only doing the boss
I did mention this off hand, but to get into more of what I meant, in my opinion the issues with the multiplayer systems in these games isn't just that they're not explained that well, but that there seems to be at least a small but sometimes a marked disconnect between how the developers design and implement multiplayer functionality tools, and how the community ends up using those tools. I personally didn't really get the sense that the summoning pool is designed for anything in particular beyond somewhat standardizing the locations of summon signs, but I can at least see the logic there. However, I would also point out that the summon sign at boss door convention is not anything From Software designed intentionally either. That's a convention that the overall collective of players came to intuitively, and, I mean, it's not a stretch that that's what people would do with that particular tool or anything, but again, a hypothetical player who isn't able to intuit that out of their initial impressions is not going to get it out of the game.
If they want to encourage certain forms of player behaviour, they could do a much better job of it. For instance, I think, if they designed the summoning pool to be for players to engage in more long form, open-ended co-operative play, they designed it for that poorly. Halving co-operator Flask charges, preventing any kind of functionality from resting at sites of grace, and keeping the reward for the co-operator to be the same single Rune Arc as the Furled Finger summoning route, all actively work against that design. Increasing the reward for co-operating with someone for longer and giving you at least some kind of more equal capability to heal and restore Flask charges as your host would definitely encourage that kind of play more than just shepherding signs into specific locations. Personally I would rather they err on the side of making the carrot bigger than maintaining an air of mystique around the stick.
To add to the general discussion about summoning mechanics being obtuse, I haven‘t had any trouble using them in the fairly limited way I’ve wanted to, but it took me a while to realise that the summoning pools have no effect on your ability to summon a friend with whom you share a multiplayer password - I have spent a decent amount of time exploring some areas with a buddy, stopped activating the summoning pools after a while, and found it made no difference. As long as we both have our multiplayer passwords in place, he can put down his gold sign and I can see & interact with it, and vice versa. Similarly, we can be invaded when co-oping, regardless of summoning pool status in the area. None of this is a problem, it was just surprising to me, because my interpretation of the in game summoning instructions led me to believe it would be otherwise.
@“yeso”#p62226 cooking din and laughing about hugh jaynis…
So my 8bitdo failed me again. They accepted the warranty but until then I’ll be using a ps2-> USB adapter to ply elden ring with a ps2 controller, lol.
@“tapevulture”#p62285 whats for dinner
@“treefroggy”#p62286 stir fry cabbage and chicken with white rice. cooking in an unfamiliar kitchen because we're out of town this weekend and thinking my experiences in…the lands between…have prepared me for this plunge into the unknown………
and thinking about hugh jaynis
For what it is worth I have only been putting my sign down in front of a boss door. I've been doing so after beating the boss, so I can help a few other people beat it if they are struggling now I know what is going on. Never a particularly amazing rune farm, but a good way of maintaining a collection of rune arcs at least.
I haven't had much trouble being pulled in to other players' games. Usually longest wait has been in the order of 30 to 60 seconds.
I used the spike thing that sends my sign to "nearby" pools once and never again. I tried it in the first area to put my sign at the pool to try and help someone with the Tree Sentinel you avoid at the very start of the game, and instead got summoned over to the pool infront of Margit. Interesting definition of "nearby".
@“Syzygy”#p62291 food nourishes me body while hugh jaynis nourishes me mind
prior to meeting Mr jaynis Id seen 2 different player names that did the “gamer word” phonetically so it was nice to just see an anus thing
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@Jaffe if you got an amazingly great question for the podcast, but it was submitted by a “Hugh Jaynis” how would you handle it?